List of Archived Posts

2003 Newsgroup Postings (05/02 - 05/20)

Escon vs Ficon Cost
IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
Calculations involing very large decimals
chad... the unknown story
IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
Why did TCP become popular ?
IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
Why did TCP become popular ?
Why did TCP become popular ?
Why did TCP become popular ?
Do Data Models Need to built on a Mathematical Concept?
Authentication protocol
IBM system 370
Mainframe Tape Drive Usage Metrics
Why did TCP become popular ?
Why did TCP become popular ?
Authentication protocol
Why did TCP become popular ?
UT200 (CDC RJE) Software for TOPS-10?
IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
Why did TCP become popular ?
Authentication protocol
HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
OT What movies have taught us about Computers
application of unique signature
Hardware support of "new" instructions
OT What movies have taught us about Computers
IBM system 370
IBM system 370
chad... the unknown story
UNIX on LINUX on VM/ESA or z/VM
IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
Does PowerPC 970 has Tagged TLBs (Address Space Identifiers)
entity authentication with non-repudiation
OT What movies have taught us about Computers
IBM system 370
Segments, capabilities, buffer overrun attacks
IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs
OT What movies have taught us about Computers
OT What movies have taught us about Computers
Question about Unix "heritage"
employee motivation & executive compensation
Segments, capabilities, buffer overrun attacks
How is a smartcard created?
How is a smartcard created?
Question about Unix "heritage"
employee motivation & executive compensation
Question about Unix "heritage"
Question about Unix "heritage"
Smartcards and devices
PKINIT
The figures of merit that make mainframes worth the price
employee motivation & executive compensation
employee motivation & executive compensation
IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
The figures of merit that make mainframes worth the price

Escon vs Ficon Cost

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Escon vs Ficon Cost
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:58:37 GMT
EBIE@PHMINING.COM (Eric Bielefeld) writes:
FICON is much more expensive. Cards for CEC are more expensive and cards for the device (DASD box, etc.) are more expensive too. Cables - I guess - it's not an issue. FICON switches are more expensive too. You must use more ESCON links for the same bandwith but it's still cheaper. Of course good salesman can make miracle with the prices...

in the late '80s, escon had been kicking around the company for something like ten plus years. one of the 6000 engineers did some optimization ... for about 10 percent more bandwidth and using different parts for about 1/10th the cost ... on the 6000 it was called SLA (serial link adapter) ... aka there were discussions with some of the cdrom manufactures about using common parts.

then there was an effort to start on the 800mbit version of SLA (aka enhanced escon) about 1990. work on FCS (fiber channel standard) had started circa 1987 ... and people were convinced that rather than doing a 800mbit version of SLA ... that instead participation in FCS would be more productive. In some sense, HiPPI was driven by LANL to do a "standard" of cray parallel copper channel and FCS was driven by LLNL to do a "standard" of a serial (then) copper non-blocking switch infrastructure that they were using.

In the 91/92 time-frame, discussions that periodically consumed large amounts of time/bandwidth in the FCS meetings & mailing lists was efforts by POK-oriented participants on how to craft half-duplex support (aka ibm channel) into the higher level FCS protocols. It turns out to be much harder than many people think to make a full-duplex paradigm .... conform to half-duplex conventions. Full-duplex automatically assumes that stuff can be flowing simultaneously in both direction. Half-duplex tends to have all sorts of sequencing/serialization requirements..

It would have been much simpler to map SSA (effectively a full-duplex mapping of SCSI to serial copper) to FCS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13 SSA

minor ref:
http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/tip/1,289483,sid5_gci884574,00.html

from above: Mainframe FICON channels and RS/6000 fiber channel HBAs are both variations of the FC standard. At the physical level and the lower protocol levels, both are identical. It is easy to think of a channel and an HBA being the same.

minor other refs:
http://www.fibrechannel.org/OVERVIEW/software.html
http://www.aboutsans.com/san_workshop/ibm_inrange_451.php

random past fiber-channel refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#16 Dual-ported disks?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#17 Dual-ported disks?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#15 tcp/ip
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#26 System/360 Model 30
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#5 360/44 (was Re: IBM 1130 (was Re: IBM 7090--used for business or
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#30 Drive letters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40 Comparison Cluster vs SMP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#49 Edsger Dijkstra: the blackest week of his professional life
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#54 Fault Tolerance
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#125 Q: S/390 on PowerPC?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#22 Cache coherence [was Re: TF-1]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#56 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#59 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#68 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#14 FW: RS6000 vs IBM Mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#31 OT?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#46 Small IBM shops
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#69 Wheeler and Wheeler
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#66 commodity storage servers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#17 I hate Compaq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#5 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#22 ESCON Channel Limits
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#25 ESCON Data Transfer Rate

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#28 OS Workloads : Interactive etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#32 What goes into a 3090?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#33 ESCON Distance Limitations - Why ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#78 Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#18 AS/400 and MVS - clarification please
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#83 HONE
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#15 Unisys A11 worth keeping?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#45 M$ SMP and old time IBM's LCMP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#78 Future interconnects
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#0 Clustering ( was Re: Interconnect speeds )
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#37 Why only 24 bits on S/360?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#57 Another light on the map going out
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#40 inter-block gaps on DASD tracks

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
 monopoly
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 16:09:30 GMT
hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes:
It could be. Oddly, they have no picture. But it doesn't tell whether it's cotton or blended; I think all of Shepler's solid whites are blended (which make me quite uncomfortable.)

there is a sheplers about a mile from my current position (assuming talking about the same company) ... i'll drive right by it in an hour or two.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
monopoly
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 16:09:30 GMT
hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes:
It could be. Oddly, they have no picture. But it doesn't tell whether it's cotton or blended; I think all of Shepler's solid whites are blended (which make me quite uncomfortable.)

there is a sheplers about a mile from my current position (assuming talking about the same company) ... i'll drive right by it in an hour or two.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Calculations involing very large decimals

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Calculations involing very large decimals
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 18:28:05 GMT
Brian Inglis writes:
I remember seeing the Matsushita (aka Panasonic/Quasar) name on a number of parts in IBM equipment used 24x7, so they're probably pretty reliable (on the order of 10 years with zero failures).

slightly related ... although a little drift
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#0 Escon vs Ficon Cost

the following ref trip was a couple years before the time-frame mentioned in the above:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#33b High Speed Data Transport (HSDT)

it was first time i walked a surface mount assembly line (outside osaka). I watched the boards pass under this line ... and it was almost like it was spraying black paint on the board. there was a rumor that a single surface mount assembly machine might exist in the US at the time ... but the rumor was standard chips that had the pins cut-off flush with the bottom of the chip (as opposed to surface mount chips). surface mount implied that you could paint both sides of the board with chips .... and real surface mount with the contacts directly underneath the chips, implied that you could pack them closer together on the board.

at the time, I was dealing with these $6k modems and I claimed I could get better FEC (reed-solomon) and optical drivers in a $300 cd player ... and the servo-motor was for free.

other refs related to the optical drivers:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#25 ESCON Data Transfer Rate

there were some numbers from the time that because of the volumes in the consumer electronic industry ... that better QA up-front had bigger pay-off vis-a-vis the computer industry (modulo issues of mechanical parts and duty cycles). Possibly some idea that higher profit margin in the computer industry tolerated a much higher scrap/failure. on the other hand it might just be similar to what hit the auto industry.

random surface mount ref:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#27 End of Moore's law and how it can influence job market

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

chad... the unknown story

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: chad... the unknown story...
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 18:33:10 GMT
boebert@swcp.com (Earl Boebert) writes:
Well, at Stanford in the 50's we all called it "chad." Hamming told the story of pulling the chain of the (evidently not too bright) Bell Labs security officer by showing him the chad bucket and informing him that "every number we punched is in there."

there is the story of somebody in the early '70s walking out of toronto lab. carrying a 2314 disk pack ... and the guard asking if the person had a property pass signed by a manager. the person held the disk pack up to the light (so the guard could look between the platters) and said, its ok, all the data has been removed.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM

Refed: **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
 monopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:00:22 GMT
jmfbahciv writes:
There was never time allotted in our development to improve performance. Once in a great while there would be a project to do that. For some strange reason, the person assigned to do the job would turn out to be a nincompoop. We did it on our own time in between the rest of the work. There was usually a span of a couple of weeks where developers could take a look at performance; this happened just before we went field test. After the first field test ship, performance improvements were purposely ignored; tweaking invariably introduced more bugs (this was NOT ALLOWED during field test).

periodically security was like that .... if there was a brand new, temporary activity ... who would you give up to work on it ... the absolutely critical people on the existing project ... or some non-critical person?? it seemed that all new projects, by definition, got the non-critical people.

then there were whole organizations ... which i sometime referred to as NFL theory of project allocation. If you were assigning a brand new project to an organization ... whould you choose an organization that was currently doing (succesfully) some critical product ... or an idle organization that had their previous project(s) canceled?

i got to do performance ... as well as things like structural re-organization (like for serialization eliminating large number of timing dependent bugs and all cases of zombie/hung processes) ... in part because, for the most part, i stayed in staff position and out of direct line responsibility. even the benchmarking methodology for the resource manager took time to develop ... and the validation benchmarks for the first release of the resource manager took 3 months elapsed time to run. misc. recent refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#15 Disk capacity and backup solutions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#30 One Processor is bad?

misc general:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subpubkey.html#technology
i.e.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#fairshare performance &/or scheduling
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#wsclock working set, lru, wsclock page replacement
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#bench benchmarking, workload profile, capacity planning
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#smp multiprocessor, tightly-coupled, smp, compare and swap
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#dumprx problem determination, zombies, dump readers

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
monopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:23:29 GMT
"Rupert Pigott" writes:
CPU --> Registers --> L1 Cache --> L2 Cache --> L3 Cache --> RAM --> Disk.

there is recent thread regarding number of physical and logical registers might not be the same. In general l1/l2/l3/ram/disk caching is transparent to the application code ... while the register caching isn't. however with pipelining and possibly out-of-order execution there are effectively physical registers where logical register values get temporarily stuffed/cached by the cpu.

recent discussion regarding multi-cpu shared (processor) cache and global LRU vis-a-vis. local LRU strategies ... and various file/record/data caching strategies for disks, controllers, bus, systems:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#55 Advantages of multiple cores on single chip

misc. working set, case, etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#wsclock

and in managed storage ... the disk are caches for things that have home position in big silos ... aka where is the line between backup/archive and hierarchical storage.

random unitree, datatree, lincs, mesa archival, wdsf, adsm, tsm, etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#21 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#22 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#66 commodity storage servers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#2 Why is UNIX semi-immune to viral infection?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#66 Holy Satanism! Re: Hyper-Threading Technology - Intel information.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#3 IBM's "old" boss speaks (was "new")
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#10 Deleting files and emails at Arthur Andersen and Enron
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#46 What goes into a 3090?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#61 GE 625/635 Reference + Smart Hardware
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#29 Computers in Science Fiction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#24 Definition of Non-Repudiation ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#8 Avoiding JCL Space Abends
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#31 general networking is: DEC eNet: was Vnet : Unbelievable
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#25 Beyond 8+3
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#29 360/370 disk drives
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#31 360/370 disk drives
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#43 VMFPLC2 tape format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#9 IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Why did TCP become popular ?

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:15:47 GMT
"Skybuck Flying" writes:
4. TCP/IP is supported by routers and therefor routable across big networks allowing anybody to communicate with anybody.


http://www.computerworld.com/networkingtopics/networking/story/0,10801,42984


IP introduced a new paradigm, the internetworking layer ... with gateways ... that allowed interconnection of networks (great switch over 1/1/83). ref: NCP/TCP Transition Plan, rfc801
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcidx2.htm#801

This is also along the lines of some recent OSI discussions. IP, LANs, and OSI all happened about the same time.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#44 Rewrite TCP/IP

OSI (and arpanet) were homogeneous and didn't allow for gateways and interconnection of (possibly heterogeneous) networks. IP layer doesn't exist in the OSI model. the concept of interconnection of heterogeneous networks was somewhat novel (although the internal network had effectively gateway-type support in every node from nearly the start in nearly time-frame as arpanet start; and was, in fact larger than the internet until sometime in the 1985 time-frame, after the ip cut-over).

OSI also didn't allow for LANs ... and in fact, later in the '80s when attempting to do high-speed protocol standard ... which would go directly from transport/layer4 directly to LAN interface ... it was observed that couldn't be done in ISO because it violated OSI and ISO (and ISO chartered national standards bodies) were under constraint that only OSI conforming standards could be done. the problem with LANs is that it reached up into the middle of layer3 ... and any protocol that interfaced directly to LAN interface violated the OSI model. The appearance of LANs, homogeneous network paradigms supported multiple LAN collections with bridge methodologies ... while IP had the option of gateways.

IETF process requires interoperable implementation for standards to progress. most other standards bodies don't require that actual implementations ever occur.

misc.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subpubkey.html#networking
i.e.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#xtphsp OSI and High Speed Protocol
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internet misc. arpanet, nsfnet, internet
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm

and my ietf/rfc index:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
 monopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:29:22 GMT
"Rupert Pigott" writes:
Also from the point of view of performance these things are not transparent, and the evidence for this is in the way people mash up their lovely HLL code to get the low-hanging fruit.

from the standpoint of the application code they tend to be transparent, from the standpoint of the application ... the performance issues might not be transparent. somebody might choose to use different code in the application because of things like performance issues. or to re-arrange the code ... as per vs/repack. while vs/repack (the product) was primarily marketed as semi-automated code restructuring for paging environments, it was also used for various other performance optimization activities (cache sensitivity).

a big activity in the 3081 time-frame (early 80s) was restructing kernel storage allocation for cache sensity (aligning allocation on cache boundaries and in units of cache lines) because of significant cross-cache trashing in SMP environment when different storage units overlapped in the same cache line.

random past vs/repack posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#7 IBM 7090 (360s, 370s, apl, etc)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#68 The Melissa Virus or War on Microsoft?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#30 Could CDR-coding be on the way back?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#83 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#31 database (or b-tree) page sizes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#33 database (or b-tree) page sizes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#20 Very CISC Instuctions (Was: why the machine word size ...)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#28 OS Workloads : Interactive etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#45 cp/67 addenda (cross-post warning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#46 cp/67 addenda (cross-post warning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#49 Swapper was Re: History of Login Names
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#50 IBM going after Strobe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#50 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#15 Alpha performance, why?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#21 "Super-Cheap" Supercomputing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#53 Alpha performance, why?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#15 Disk capacity and backup solutions

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Why did TCP become popular ?

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 19:10:29 GMT
Lon Stowell writes:
4. Good SNA documentation and test suite were available, but SNA was a intranetworking, not a good public interconnect technology. Far more reliable, IMNHO, far more difficult to hack or dos.

5. The good folks decided that the CCITT standards were too cheap [full set of '84 was about $400] so they added several zeros to the price. All of a sudden nobody could afford to give each working engineer their own copy, the edu's didn't even bother.

6. Purely my own non-humble opinion, but the TCP and earlier CCITT standards came from technical committees. The OSI ones came from politically dominated committees with far to much input from the land of the clueless...telco groups.


using the OSI model ... one can claim that SNA didn't support networking at all ... lacking the equivalent of a network layer. It wasn't until APPN ... and the SNA group nonconcurred with the announcement of APPN; APPN announcement was held up for six weeks while the the dispute was escalated and then the APPN announcement letter was carefully rewritten so that there was no direct connection between APPN and SNA. Earlier, when my wife had done peer-to-peer stuff (she had been con'ed into going to pok to be in charge of loosely-coupled ... aka cluster) ... there was lots of discord with the SNA crowd. SNA was pretty much a large complex telecommunications control system, not networking and not peer-to-peer.

note a lot of CCITT was point-to-point copper oriented ... from telco groups. possibly part of the issue was simple point-to-point copper wasn't necessarily good grounding from complex heterogeneous networks.

ref:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#7 Why did TCP become popular?

Say circa '84 ... previously terminals, workstations, and PCs connected to the local network host via some sort of terminal support and then accessed the "network" via applications on the local network host. With LANs, workstations, PCs, IP and IP gateway (all coming together), it was possible to have the PCs and workstations interact with each other and the local network host with TCP/IP. Installing IP gateway on the local network host also resulted in the PCs and workstations being able to access the network directly in the same manner that they interacting locally. This also resulted in the number of network hosts at a local site exploding from one to hundreds.

random appn & sna refs: ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#51 APPC vs TCP/IP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#53 APPC vs TCP/IP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#89 "Database" term ok for plain files?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#54 WHAT IS A MAINFRAME???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#31 3745 and SNI
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#28 Buffer overflow
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#54 Computer Naming Conventions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#43 Beginning of the end for SNA?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#48 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#12 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#48 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#20 Vnet : Unbelievable
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#67 3745 & NCP Withdrawl?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#49 unix

peer-coupled shared data refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#35a Drive letters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#37 What is MVS/ESA?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40 Comparison Cluster vs SMP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availabilty on S/390
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#100 Why won't the AS/400 die? Or, It's 1999 why do I have to learn how to use
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#128 Examples of non-relational databases
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#13 Computer of the century
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#30 OT?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#37 OT?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#73 7090 vs. 7094 etc.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#69 Wheeler and Wheeler
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#71 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#2 Block oriented I/O over IP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#44 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#76 Other oddball IBM System 360's ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#54 Computer Naming Conventions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#6 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#48 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#12 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#45 M$ SMP and old time IBM's LCMP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#68 META: Newsgroup cliques?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#67 unix

some past terminal emulation posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#6 Computer of the century
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#35 VMS vs. Unix (was: Why are Suns so slow?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#13 IBM's mess (was: Re: What the hell is an MSX?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#14 IBM's mess (was: Re: What the hell is an MSX?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#83 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#16 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#35 Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#14 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#43 CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#66 vm marketing (cross post)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#74 Itanium2 power limited?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#19 Vnet : Unbelievable
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#24 computers and stuff
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#29 computers and stuff
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#30 computers and stuff
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#53 10 choices that were critical to the Net's success
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#40 ibm time machine in new york times?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#41 ibm time machine in new york times?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#45 hyperblock drift, was filesystem structure (long warning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#23 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#28 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#33 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#34 diffence between itanium and alpha

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Why did TCP become popular ?

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:23:30 GMT
"Skybuck Flying" writes:
Pardon me for asking but why do you keep all these newsgroup messages stored ? :):):)

I can imagine someone storing a few... but this is a lot !

And most of it is very technical and probably boring to read ?! :)

Maybe you started collecting it when google wasn't invented yet ?


maybe sometime in the 70s ... before newsgroups

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Why did TCP become popular ?

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 22:03:15 GMT
out of total website hits it tends to avg around 30 percent each for the usenet/newsgroup archive
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#archpost

and the ietf rfc index ....
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#internet

and around 20 percent each for the (crypto & standards related) mailing lists
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#x959
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#aads

and the glossaries
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#glossary

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Do Data Models Need to built on a Mathematical Concept?

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Do Data Models Need to built on a Mathematical Concept?
Newsgroups: comp.databases.theory
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 22:36:07 GMT
neo55592@hotmail.com (Neo) writes:
Just as in pure set theory, I want the flexibility that the elements can be anything. But, in the rdb model, that flexibility cannot be fully realized because the type of values in a domain is restricted to some hardware dependent type (ie int, long, date, 50 chars, etc). If I think of a set of arbitrary thing in my mind, I don't think about their type to decide if they can on cannot be included in that set. If the things in a set are of different types, I probably would not be performing operations such as add or average on them.

as an aside fips193, sql standard
http://www.itl.nist.gov/fipspubs/193-1.htm

... & from above:
SQL is particularly appropriate for the definition and management of data that is structured into repeated occurrences having common data structure definitions. SQL provides a high-level query and update language for set-at-a-time retrieval and update operations, as well as required database management functions for schema and view definition, integrity constraints, schema manipulation, and access control. SQL provides a data manipulation language that is mathematically sound and based on a first-order predicate calculus. SQL is self-describing in the sense that all schema information is queryable through a set of catalog tables called the Information Schema.

... sql from slightly different view:
http://www.it.bond.edu.au/inft320/003/lectures/Relational%20Data/node6.html
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~gurari/course/cis670/cis670Ch9.html

... & just for kicks, a non-rdb, graph/network model
http://www.jfsowa.com/pubs/semnet.htm
for arbritrary occuring information, including possibly anomolous and non-regular real-world structures.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Authentication protocol

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Authentication protocol.
Newsgroups: alt.security,comp.lang.java.security
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 00:55:29 GMT
"Al" writes:
I've looked at some authentication protocols and implemented one with some modification for my application. Just like to know if there are any loopholes. The aim is to only let registered clients (not expired and not blacklisted) access the service. The implementation is in Java. Hope you could have a look and comment on it.

Phase 1: Setup 1. Trusted applet loaded on the user's machine and presents registration form. 2. User fills in registration form and submits. 3. Trusted applet creates public/private keypair on client's machine and store them in a specific keystore for this application in the user's machine. 4. Public key of the client is then sent over to the server and stored in database together with start date and end date.

Phase 2: Authentication 1. Trusted applet runs the authentication service, sending the client's public key to server. 2. Server checks client's public key to see if it is a valid key - not expired, and not blacklisted. 3. Server creates a random token and hashes it, then sends the hashed random token to client. 4. Client receives hashed random token and then signs it with private key and sends it to server. 5. Server receives the signed token and verifies the signature. 6. Client allowed to connect once signature verified.


this is similar to the pk-init certificate-less flavor for kerberos;

public key is registered with in radius database for user (effectively in lieu of a password).

user contacts server with id, server responds with string that includes some unique value, client digitally signes a message that contains the server's unique token and responds, signature is verified using public key from radius database for that id.

a difference is that instead of using a public key for both the id lookup and the signature authentication; some other value is used for the id.

note radius infrastructure includes lots of support for various types of authorization information associated with id ... allowed/not-allowed, potentially what systems can connect, what times connects can be allowed, misc. other authorization attributes.

recent similar thread
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#70 Simple resource protection with public keys

misc. other radius related refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#49 Authentication w/o user ids and passwords
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#65 Storing digital IDs on token for use with Outlook
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#14 OT: Attaining Perfection
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#42 Authentification vs Encryption in a system to system interface
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#47 Public key and the authority problem
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#57 Security in RADIUS (RFC2865)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#59 Security in RADIUS (RFC2865)

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM system 370

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM system 370
Newsgroups: comp.lang.asm370
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:42:32 GMT
"Jonas Olson" writes:
I'm afraid I have to disappoint you because I actually do program. Even assembler. Still I don't get your point when you say that the instruction set for the system/370 lives on just because other languages are translated (I guess we could pick up the term "compiled") into assembler. What surprised med was that there still existed a discussion about a platform which I thought was forgotten (almost) about a long time ago.

basically, majority of the application level (problem state) instructions from 360 (even precursor to 370), still live on in 390 and current Z machines ... and a lot of people just don't get around to changing the name every machine generation .... at least in part, up until 64bit ... majority of changes from one generation to the next were in the supervisor state (aka kernel/privileged) instructions.

the bible for instructions that the assembler implements is the principles of operation .... here is the esa/390 pop:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9AR004/CONTENTS?SHELF=#I%2e0

(instruction and machine) compatibility is covered at
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9AR004/1.3?DT=199706131

and comparison with system/370 and 370-xa is at:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9AR004/F.0?0613131822

along with summary of changes:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9AR004/F.3?SHELF=&DT=19970613131822

while lots of the POP covers kernel & privilege mode operation .... most of the instructions in chater 7, general instructions:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9AR004/CONTENTS?SHELF=#I%2e0

come right out of 360 (even before 370).

the latest z/architecture (with 64 bit support) POP is at:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9ZR001/CCONTENTS?SHELF=DZ9ZBK01&DN=SA22-7832-01&DT=20020416112421

POPs for the past 30? some years have always had the summary of changes section. this seems to just have the section on "The ESA/390 base"
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9ZR001/CCONTENTS?SHELF=DZ9ZBK01&DN=SA22-7832-01&DT=20020416112421

I expect that it is still possible to use the current assembler to correctly assemble some number of 360 era assembler programs (precursor to 370).

So a lot of people talking about the "370 assemble" (when referencing the current assembler) probably learned on 370 (or even 360) ... and nobody has felt strongly enuf about the reference to change the name of the newsgroup everytime a new generation machine was brought out.

>From a standpoint of nomenclature, at one time the "SLAC-mods" to the assembler represented a bigger differentiator in assembler function ... than the change from one machine generation to the next.

There are somewhat orthogonal issues ... the features of the assembler and the machine instructions supported by the assembler. However, people may make references to the (ibm) 370 assembler ... when they are referring to the current assembler product.

so the current official name .... IBM High Level Assembler for MVS & VM & VSE can be found at:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/ASMR1001/CCONTENTS?DT=19950207185621

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Mainframe Tape Drive Usage Metrics

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Mainframe Tape Drive Usage Metrics
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 22:45:58 GMT
IBM-MAIN@ISHAM-RESEARCH.COM (Phil Payne) writes:
Yup. Same company offered a light-driven stopwatch that timed "Input Inhibit" on 3270s - worked very well on the Telex clones. Recorded how long the light/screen symbol was on for each time and even (IIRC) produced an average. Cost about $30.

Our users bought two or three and stuck them onto their terminals. Made our lives hell in SLA compliance meetings.


about the time the 3274/3278 came out we got a FIFO box for the 3277 keyboard ... and some instructions on how to change the resistance inside the keyboard to affect the repeat delay and the repeat rate.

You unplugged the keyboard from the 3277 head, plugged in very small fifo box (about the size of a rs232 sexchange plug) and then plugged the keyboard into the fifo. The fifo handled being able to type when the system light was on ... so as to avoid getting keyboard lockup when you happen to be typing at the moment the system might do something to the screen (the FIFO box was something like $26.99, so instead of measuring the lockup, it eliminated the lockup).

of course the 3278, et all ... move all such electronics back into the 3274 controller. I kept the 3277 will into the mid-80s.

The other was the 3274 controller internal overhead/delay, made it almost impossible to achieve subsecond response. The standard reply was that there are no MVS-related operations that have requirement for subsecond response.

We could show quarter second response for VM ... combined system plus controller .... when using 3272/3277 combo .... but could not achieve any progress trying to improve the 3274 for interactive environments .... it was purely targeted at MVS customers .... who, while the might have large numbers of online ... were not considered interactive and therefor response was not an issue.

measurements from ancient detailed report on 3272/3277 & 3274/327x comparison:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#19 3270 protocol

and as noted in this old report ... it is only even close for local attached using identical data stream for both 3272 & 3274 (no advanced 3274 function) .... going to SNA attached just leaves a very large crater in any interactive response strategy.

The really terrible SNA response was one of the justifications that STL used when moving a couple hundred people from the IMS group to a remote bldg ... that they refused to go with SNA supported terminals ... and instead went with local terminals using a HYPERChannel channel-extender (this was 1981 running something like 300 "local" 327x terminals over 1.5mbit, T1 line).

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Why did TCP become popular ?

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:47:10 GMT
Craig Partridge writes:
Yes and no. In 1984 (I believe) the National Academy of Sciences produced a study saying OSI and TCP/IP were equivalently capable and as well developed. That was likely true at the time.

but OSI was traditional homogeneous networking stack .... w/o gateways and internetworking capability. I've constantly claimed that one of the reasons that internet finally exceeded the internal network in size (by mid-85) was the introduction of gateway functionality (along with LANs and proliferation of PCs and workstations on LANs being able to appear as network hosts with the addition of gateway function to the traditional site mainframe network host) ... aka an important reason that the internal network was larger than the arpanet thru the 70s and into mid-80s was that the internal network effectively had gateway functionality in every node (aka 1/1/83, arpanet was dealing with the issue of 255 nodes; 6/10/83, the internal network observed the addition of the 1000th node).

there is also the small caveat that ISO, out-of-which OSI sprung ... had rulings about not considering protocols that didn't conform to OSI. We ran into this small problem when trying to do high-speed protocol that interfaced directly to LAN ... and since LANs violated OSI ... then doing a protocol to a LAN interface also, obviously, violated OSI, and therefor couldn't be considered by ISO or by an ISO chartered national body.

Scenarios claiming OSI and TCP/IP were equally capable were, at least, if they weren't allowed to consider the importance of gateway and internetworking functionality (totally lacking in OSI) ... which I believe has since been shown to be of extremely significant importance.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Why did TCP become popular ?

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 01:30:54 GMT
Mark Crispin writes:
So, discounting the logical host octet, let's look at how much ARPAnet ended up routing. A 1988 host table shows IMP host numbers up to 11, and IMP numbers of up to 126, in use. This indicates 11, maybe 12, bits of addressing. So ARPAnet was able to handle as many as 2047 or possibly 4095 nodes.

Of course, by this time, TCP/IP was well-established, and was routing quite a bit more.


gateways and internetworking is at least partially orthogonal to 8bit vis-a-vis 32bit. i believe both internet and the internal network passed 2000 nodes in '85 ... and the internet ... after the 1/1/83 cut-over, lans, PCs, workstations, gateways, etc .... growing much more rapidly than the internal network (the internal network was close to 1000 nodes at the time that arpanet was approx. 255 nodes).

i was also told circa '77 or '78 that the inter-IMP chatter vis-a-vis packet routing was starting to consume a significant percentage of the 56kbit links.

somebody else in the below reference thread specifically cited IMP up/down caused heavy inter-IMP configuration chatter ... sufficiently so it could affect the appearance of IMP up/down, further increasing heavy inter-IMP chatter.

past threads raising inter-IMP chatter overhead:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#42 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#47 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#60 Bitnet again was: unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#62 ARPAnet again: Bitnet again was: unix

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Authentication protocol

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Authentication protocol.
Newsgroups: alt.security,comp.lang.java.security
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 09:44:26 GMT
Hans Granqvist writes:
In all, this is a decent simple protocol with some problems. The problems are the usual ones: how to disallow Man in the Middle attacks. There is no good way of dong this without invlovling out-of-band transmission of keys or tokens, or using some PKI.

<PKI certificate redundant, superfluous, stale, static rant>

The public key registration with out-of-band process happens with or w/o a PKI.

Basically the RA function of a PKI operation has you generating a public/private key pair, creating a message with some assertion, like your name, and the public key ... and signing that message, and then sending it off to the PKI RA function (that is the step done for all public key registrations, whether it is a PKI RA public key registration or a non-PKI, RA public key registration).

The RA function then stores the information in some database or account record, and then uses some out-of-band process to to verify the assertion. If it is a PKI RA, the PKI RA then generates a certificate, stores it in the database also, and returns a copy of the certificate to the requester. The certificate basically contains the original message (assertion and requestor's public key), but instead of the original digital signature, it contains the "CA" digital signature.

So now, in theory, if your registering for some employee account, you create a message with some assertion, sign it, and attach your TTP CA certificate. However, having a TTP CA certificate certifying some bland piece of information, like your name, isn't sufficient, by itself, to establish you as an employee (aka I can have a perfectly good TTP CA certificate certifying that I'm John Smith and that doesn't mean that I'm an employee). So even with a TTP CA certificate, there still has to be some out-of-band process certifying that I'm the employee that I'm claiming to be ... aka the TTP CA certificate is redundant and superfluous since there is still required an out-of-band process validating being an employee.

So, lets say the RA is the employor. When you join the company, you do the keygen process and register with the employer's HR operated RA. HR validates the key, validates the assertions, and stores it in the HR database. The issue is whether or not HR has to just store the information in an account record or return a copy of the certificate to the employee. If the employee was now registering for some online service, they create a message with some assertion, digitally sign it and send it off. Does the employee's certificate need to be attached to it? For any process of importance, the corporate online service would then make a real-time check with the HR database. If they are making a real-time check with the HR database, then they can also do a real-time check of the HR database with the employee's registered public key. Again, having the employee go around passing out certificate copies is redundant and superfluous.

So, lets say this is a generic ISP. Your sign up for a generic ISP and make various assertions (like name, address, credit card number, etc). The ISP does some out-of-band validation (possibly including a real-time one dollar auth on the credit card number) and gives you a password. Now, this could be enhanced with public key and RA function. Make an SSL connection to the ISP's website, create the assertion about name, address, credit card number, etc ... adding your public key and signing the message. The ISP does all of its standard out-of-band validation and then registers the public key in its database ... preferrably a RADIUS accessable database. From then on, all PPP and authenticate webserver accesses use digitally signed messages ... which can use RADIUS protocol doing real-time retrieval of the public key and other authorization information from the ISP database. Again passing out a certificate is redundant and superfluous.

In effect, a certificate is a stale, static copy of some validated information that is stored in some sort of database. The purpose of that certificate is for situations where there is no recourse to the real-time, online, original information and/or it isn't necessary to perform any additional (out-of-band) validation operations.

In the case of an employer vis-a-vis a generic TTP CA certificate, the corporate online service still needs to validate that you are an employee regardless of what is claimed in some generic certificate, and possibly still needs to perform real-time checks regarding whether you still are an employee. Real-time access to a corporate employee registry (possibly run by HR with real-time updates regarding specific employee authorizations) makes the employee's passing out copies of stale, static certificate redundant and superfluous.

</PKI certificate redundant, superfluous, stale, static rant>

other redundant and superfluous rants:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#22 draft-ietf-pkix-warranty-ext-01
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#29 Employee Certificates - Security Issues
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#39 Identification = Payment Transaction?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#41 I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-pkix-sim-00.txt
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#0 OCSP and LDAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#2 OCSP value proposition
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#3 OCSP and LDAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#4 OCSP and LDAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#6 OCSP and LDAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#16 A challenge
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#19 A challenge
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#20 surrogate/agent addenda (long)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#25 Certificate Policies (addenda)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#36 "Trusted" CA - Oxymoron?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#40 Why trust root CAs ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#47 Why trust root CAs ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#24 Why trust root CAs ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#67 future trends in asymmetric cryptography
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#8 Server authentication
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#9 Server authentication
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#56 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#58 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#79 Q: ANSI X9.68 certificate format standard
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#3 Invalid certificate on 'security' site.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#7 Invalid certificate on 'security' site.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#35 Can I create my own SSL key?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#77 FREE X.509 Certificates
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#64 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#65 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#68 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#3 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#35 TOPS-10 logins (Was Re: HP-2000F - want to know more about it)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#49 PKI and Relying Parties
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#56 PKI and Relying Parties
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#72 Digital certificate varification
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#16 A new e-commerce security proposal
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#55 Beware, Intel to embed digital certificates in Banias
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#30 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#56 Certificate Authority: Industry vs. Government
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#57 Certificate Authority: Industry vs. Government
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#35 Public Encryption Key

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Why did TCP become popular ?

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 13:55:20 GMT
"Skybuck Flying" writes:
I think for most people the internet became popular around

1996, 1997 when the WWW and HTML was created :)


my wife and i were hired as consultants by financial services company to work with small client/server startup in silicon valley that wanted to do payments ... starting in 1994. two people at the startup responsible for this thing called a commerce server, we had previously worked with at oracle (from a previous life when we were running skunk works and turning out ha/cmp) ... the result is now somewhat referred to as electronic commerce:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13 SSA
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#asrn2 Assurance, e-commerce, and some x9.59 ... fyi
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#asrn3 Assurance, e-commerce, and some x9.59 ... fyi
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#52 loosely-coupled, sysplex, cluster, supercomputer & electronic commerce

claim can be made that some of this can be traced back to the science center when "G", "M", & "L" circa late '60s invented GML ... which begate SGML, which begate HTML, XML, etc. slightly related is the CMS/TSO bake-off done by CERN circa 1974 ... selecting CMS and getting to use lots of GML. Something similar went on at CERN's sister site, SLAC. SLAC also has some claim to be running the oldest, still operational webserver.

the science center was also responsible (besides GML, SGML) for cp/67, vm/370, virtual machine technology, the internal networking, lots of interactive applications, compare and swap instruction and lots of the early work turning performance turning into things like capacity planning. misc. science center refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

some old cern cms/tso bakeoff refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#49 any 70's era supercomputers that ran as slow as today's supercompu
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#30 IBM OS Timeline?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#19 3270 protocol
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#67 Coulda, Woulda, Shoudda moments?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#14 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#51 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#64 vm marketing (cross post)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#35 VR vs. Portable Computing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#37 VR vs. Portable Computing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#54 SHARE MVT Project anniversary
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#54 XML, AI, Cyc, psych, and literature
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#53 HASP assembly: What the heck is an MVT ABEND 422?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#69 OT: One for the historians - 360/91

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

UT200 (CDC RJE) Software for TOPS-10?

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: UT200 (CDC RJE) Software for TOPS-10?
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 04:42:58 GMT
"Charlie Gibbs" writes:
acronym n. [Acronym for Alphabetic Collocation Reducing Or Numbing Your Memory.] A memorable word from which a non- memorable phrase is acrostically generated; a circumlocutory abbreviation often confused with its antonym, MNEMONIC.

then you have GML which were the first letters of "G" & "M", & "L" last names ... and needed to come up with some description that matched there initials ... which begate generalized markup language, and then SGML, and then the more recent HTML and XML (and a whole crop of other MLs).

and then CAS nmenomic for compare and swap instruction ... which were charlie's initials; before it hit the streets the mnemonics became CS and CDS for compare and swap and compare double and swap.

both courtesy of the cambridge scientific center, 4th floor, 545 tech. sq.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
monopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:07:07 GMT
mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) writes:
In _The Soul of a New Machine_, Tom West, or somebody else, calls that Pinball motivation. The reward for doing it well enough is that you get to do it again.

we were told that the best you can hope for if you are succesful, is to not get fired and be allowed to do it again ... that was somewhat in the context of ha/cmp
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Why did TCP become popular ?

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:11:52 GMT
Lon Stowell writes:
The NCSA addons and mosaic for the mac were in use before microsoft finally figured out how to produce a passably acceptable tcp stack.

however, they did get around to hiring some really experienced people and by the time of the Microsoft Developer's conference held at Moscone jan. of '96 .... it was pretty well in hand ... I had asked Jim Gray at the conference to track them down for me ... Gray and Gorden Bell also had a small party that week for the opening of the microsoft research center that was 4-5 blocks from moscone.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Authentication protocol

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Authentication protocol.
Newsgroups: alt.security,comp.lang.java.security
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:29:13 GMT
"Hiddle Mamond" writes:
You have quite an enligtening post and replies.

To add one point: Use SSL to secure connection between client (applet) and server, so to avoid middle man attack.


most (all?) of the CA RA functions ... do use SSL. I also explicitly mention it in the ISP example:
So, lets say this is a generic ISP. Your sign up for a generic ISP and make various assertions (like name, address, credit card number, etc). The ISP does some out-of-band validation (possibly including a real-time "one dollar auth" on the credit card number) and gives you a password. Now, this could be enhanced with public key and RA function. Make an SSL connection to the ISP's website, create the assertion about name, address, credit card number, etc ... adding your public key and signing the message. The ISP does all of its standard out-of-band validation and then registers the public key in its database ... preferrably a RADIUS accessable database. From then on, all PPP and authenticate webserver accesses use digitally signed messages ... which can use RADIUS protocol do real-time retrieval of the public key and other authorization information from the ISP database. Again passing out a certificate is redundant and superfluous.

.....

also with respect to mitm attack ... long thread in another mailing list:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#1 Who's afraid of Mallory Wolf?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#2 Who's afraid of Mallory Wolf? (addenda)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#3 Armoring websites
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#4 Who's afraid of Mallory Wolf?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#5 Who's afraid of Mallory Wolf?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#9 "Marginot Web" (SSL, payments, etc)

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:30:46 GMT
all the news reports regarding skimming seem to be (done for both credit & debit) various & sundry methods of recording (essentially) the plaintext ... and then doing things like manufacturing couterfeit cards. appears to be orders of magnitude simpler than trying to break the crypto.

try search engine for skimming, and/or card, skimming

misc postings :
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay6.htm#ccfraud2 "out of control credit card fraud"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay9.htm#skim High-tech Thieves Snatch Data From ATMs (including PINs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#40 In Brief: Anti-'Skimming' Guidelines Coming
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay10.htm#3 High-tech Thieves Snatch Data From ATMs (including PINs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay10.htm#41 ATM Scams - Whose Liability Is It, Anyway?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay10.htm#44 Credit Card Skimming Rising In The US

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:36:14 GMT
"contact" writes:
Your note about credit card fraud in Europe was interesting. Does use of the Euro Card require a PIN entry or is it optional? Is it always a Smart Card or can it be a just a mag stripe card? I believe in the USA credit card fraud is much more prevalent than debit card fraud and that's why using a PIN for all transactions would lower the fraud cost.

The part about having the PIN entry go into the Smart Card in the clear is a worry because most Smart Cards here have a mag stripe as well. It's feared that the PIN for the mag stripe use would be the same as for the Smart Card potion and that crooks could easily obtain the PIN when it's used in a Smart Card reader.

... note, slight drift with references to EU finread (aka financial card reader) standard:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#3dsecure 3D Secure Vulnerabilities? Photo ID's and Payment Infrastructure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm9.htm#carnivore Shades of FV's Nathaniel Borenstein: Carnivore's "Magic Lantern"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#keygen2 Welome to the Internet, here's your private key
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#4 AW: Digital signatures as proof
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#5 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#6 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#23 Proxy PKI. Was: IBM alternative to PKI?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#24 Interests of online banks and their users [was Re: Cryptogram: Palladium Only for DRM]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#57 Q: Internet banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#60 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#61 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#62 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#64 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#25 Net banking, is it safe???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#26 No Trusted Viewer possible?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#0 Are client certificates really secure?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#6 Smart Card vs. Magnetic Strip Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#9 Smart Card vs. Magnetic Strip Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#10 Opinion on smartcard security requested
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#21 Opinion on smartcard security requested
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#46 Security Issues of using Internet Banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#55 Security Issues of using Internet Banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#69 Digital signature
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#38 Convenient and secure eCommerce using POWF
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#13 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#26 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#67 smartcard+fingerprint

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:51:33 GMT
"John E. Hadstate" writes:
It's beginning to sound like the whole system is like a cardboard box with a steel vault door mounted on it! There are easier ways into the box than going through the door.

yesterday in a cybersecurity panel discussion, i used the analogy of a 6-foot thick bank vault door sitting in the middle of an open field, no walls, ceiling, etc, just the door.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
 monopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:44:15 GMT
jmfbahciv writes:
JMF did a lot of prelim just-in-case hooks. How many times do you see a way to do it "easy" or, if you spend some extra time on a piece of code could be used for some other stuff that you know will be asked for but hasn't been "approved". Now, in the -10 world we had to be careful not to mess around too much; doing anything that changed documentation had to be handled with kid gloves. Doing anything that caught the notice of the product manager idiots was to be avoided at all costs. :-)

there is a corollary ... if you did a lot of stuff ahead of time, anticipating diffiiculties ... then the management and the rest of the world started to percieve that it was an easy job ... vis-a-vis some other project that was always having disasters (i.e. it wasn't that you were doing a job a hundred times better ... it was that your job was obviously too easy since you weren't having the constant disasters).

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

OT What movies have taught us about Computers

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: OT What movies have taught us about Computers
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:01:56 GMT
jmfbahciv writes:
They did come from companies who make a living fixing hardware. We had a damnedable time convincing DEC powers that customers might really need 7x24 continuous computer service. I recall talking with a hardware engineer who honestly believed that all the in-house computer systems were powered down when he left work every night. He did not see any need to sink money into continuous system service. So I asked him if he would tolerate a 24 hour electric service shutdown whenever the power company wanted to take a turbine on- or off-line. That one actually shut him up and I could see little used gears spin in his brain.

Note that this was a hardware engineer in a computer manaufacturing company. Not many of them had any idea what they were building or designing. They couldn't see further than their prints. And I found this narrrow view to be very common among hardware types. The exceptions...sadly, I'm counting them on one hand and we had a lot of hardware people.


when the early cp/67 time-sharing service bureaus started having world-wide customers ... the traditional hardware preventive maintenence schedules started to represent a problem ... i.e. there was always somebody, somewhere using the system (even 2am-5am sunday morning).

they tended to already have multiple processors in a clustered environment to handle the aggregate load ... but, (I think it was first IDC, by this time they had already moved on to early version of vm/370) eventually had to implement process migration to handle the situation ... migrating all the work off of a processor complex and effectively varying it offline so it could be taken down for preventive maintenence.

some past 7x24 service bureau discussions:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#9 Checkpointing (was spice on clusters)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#52 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#4 virtualizable 360, was TSS ancient history
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#35 D
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#59 Blinkenlights
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#44 cp/67 (coss-post warning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#34 Computers in Science Fiction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#62 subjective Q. - what's the most secure OS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#64 Hercules and System/390 - do we need it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#27 why does wait state exist?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#32 why does wait state exist?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#73 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#15 CA-RAMIS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#3 Alpha performance, why?

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

application of unique signature

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: application of unique signature
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:43:20 GMT
"John E. Hadstate" writes:
Isn't any signature a statement that the signer is in some way associated with the thing being signed? You sign a check to affirm that you authorize the transfer of a certain amount of money to someone else. You sign a lease to affirm that you have read, understood, and agreed to the terms in fine print on the back side of the page. You sign an e-mail message to affirm that you are somehow associated with it (although that's a little questionable considering the prevalence of "features" like "Automatically sign all outgoing mail messages").

Digital signatures are virtually always "signatures by proxy", the proxy agent being the computer program that generates them. Most people can't compute or verify a digital signature themselves.

<<< Is it useful? >>>

It depends on whether some third party accepts the signature as genuine and chooses to act on that belief (disburses money, enforces the lease, what ever).


there are various uniqueness issues .... does every generation result in a unique signature ... aka fips186/DSA with the use of random number as part of the signature generation as opposed to say uniquely associated with a specific individual.

There is a lot of stuff around non-repudiation that includes did the person intend to sign what they signed.

a simple example is various personalities in hardware tokens that generate digital signatures.

Access tokens personalities may have the requirement for a PIN at power-on for the token to work correctly aka two-factor authentication, something you have and something you know.

Financial token personalitieis tend to have the requirement for a PIN for every signature performed ... regardless of whether it is power-on event or the token has been powered on for several hours and it is the one hundredth signature. The issue is that the additional requirement for a human interaction (re-entering the PIN) for every signature, helps carry with it the sense of human intention. It is still two-factor authentication, something you have and something you know ... but there is also the added sense that the human has performed an explicit physical action for every digital signature (starting to make it a little more analogous to human, physical signature).

For non-repudiation and intention there are also issues (somewhat addressed by EU finread standard) related to is what the human believed they are signing, what got signed (was the signature applied to what was displayed to the human and read).

lots of discussions regarding finread, intention, & non-repudiation:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm3.htm#cstech4 cardtech/securetech & CA PKI
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#shock revised Shocking Truth about Digital Signatures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#ocrp Online Certificate Revocation Protocol
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#spki2 Simple PKI
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm6.htm#nonreput Sender and receiver non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm6.htm#nonreput2 Sender and receiver non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm9.htm#carnivore Shades of FV's Nathaniel Borenstein: Carnivore's "Magic Lantern"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm9.htm#pkcs12b A PKI Question: PKCS11-> PKCS12
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay6.htm#vouc implementations of "XML Voucher: Generic Voucher Language" ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep0 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep1 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep2 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep3 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep4 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep5 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep6 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#3dsecure 3D Secure Vulnerabilities? Photo ID's and Payment Infrastructure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#cfppki15 CFP: PKI research workshop
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#cfppki18 CFP: PKI research workshop
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#paiin PAIIN security glossary & taxonomy
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#keygen2 Welome to the Internet, here's your private key
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#4 AW: Digital signatures as proof
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#5 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#6 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#7 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#8 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#9 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#11 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#12 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#13 Words, Books, and Key Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#14 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#15 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#23 Proxy PKI. Was: IBM alternative to PKI?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#0 maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#5 NEWS: 3D-Secure and Passport
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#12 TOC for world bank e-security paper
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#19 TCPA not virtualizable during ownership change (Re: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#24 Interests of online banks and their users [was Re: Cryptogram: Palladium Only for DRM]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#30 Employee Certificates - Security Issues
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#37 Legal entities who sign
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#38 Legal entities who sign
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#59 e-Government uses "Authority-stamp-signatures"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay10.htm#53 First International Conference On Trust Management
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay10.htm#72 Invisible Ink, E-signatures slow to broadly catch on
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#94 Those who do not learn from history...
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#79 Cryptogram Newsletter is off the wall?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#30 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#34 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#39 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#40 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#41 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#42 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#43 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#44 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#45 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#46 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#47 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#50 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#51 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#52 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#54 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#56 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#57 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#58 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#59 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#60 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#72 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#73 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#39 Ancient computer humor - DEC WARS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#11 FREE X.509 Certificates
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#38 distributed authentication
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#57 Q: Internet banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#60 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#61 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#62 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#64 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#51 future of e-commerce
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#25 Net banking, is it safe???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#26 No Trusted Viewer possible?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#7 No Trusted Viewer possible?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#46 Big black helicopters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#0 Are client certificates really secure?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#43 Why is UNIX semi-immune to viral infection?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#6 Smart Card vs. Magnetic Strip Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#9 Smart Card vs. Magnetic Strip Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#10 Opinion on smartcard security requested
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#21 Opinion on smartcard security requested
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#35 Security and e-commerce
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#46 Security Issues of using Internet Banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#55 Security Issues of using Internet Banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#37 Security Issues of using Internet Banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#69 Digital signature
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#13 Biometric authentication for intranet websites?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#68 Are you really who you say you are?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#67 Does Diffie-Hellman schema belong to Public Key schema family?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#77 Does Diffie-Hellman schema belong to Public Key schema family?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#24 Definition of Non-Repudiation ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#40 Beginner question on Security
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#24 Two questions on HMACs and hashing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#26 Do any architectures use instruction count instead of timer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#28 Two questions on HMACs and hashing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#38 Convenient and secure eCommerce using POWF
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#13 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#16 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#19 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#26 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#67 smartcard+fingerprint
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#72 So I tried this //vm.marist.edu stuff on a slow Sat. night,
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#52 Cirtificate Authorities 'CAs', how curruptable are they to
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#19 Message (authentication/integrity); was: Re: CRC-32 collision
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#29 Message (authentication/integrity); was: Re: CRC-32 collision
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#37 unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#25 HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Hardware support of "new" instructions

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Hardware support of "new" instructions
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:22:48 GMT
richgr writes:
ISTR that it wasn't 6 bit ASCII (is there any such code?), but was 6 bit BCDIC. EBCDIC was Extended BCDIC, which extended the 6 bit code to 8 bits. BCDIC was the character code on the 1401 (1620?).

my first student programming job was re-implemented 1401 MPIO on 360/30 ... 1401 MPIO was handling ur<->tape front-end for 709 (bcdic 6bit, vis-a-vis, 360 8bit ebcdic 360)

my trusty green card .. as bit ops for 7-track, 2400 tape drive. mode identifiers in the control command were for set density set parity on/off set data converter on/off set translation on/off request tie (track in error)

table of actual bits:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#34 9-track tapes (by the armful)

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

OT What movies have taught us about Computers

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: OT What movies have taught us about Computers
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:26:21 GMT
Morten Reistad writes:
Most Old Computer shops have been through this transition. Some still have to struggle with it. Banks are just in the middle of this transition now. They used to have a 14x5 requirement; things had to run 7-21 all business days. Now the Internet is giving them a run for 24x7.

One thing we SHOULD keep is the regular maintenence of systems; where suspect hardware is fixed. This is removed only at our peril.If you really want 24x7 it will cost you at least a second system. I still haven't seen a standalone system that has a real chance of getting to 100%, even if the system itself keeps working.

Sooner or later someone is going to blow the main fuse, release the halon/sprinkler, make a fire or flood, Or the software is going to blow up.


IDC started out with datacenter in waltham ... and then added one in sanfran. process migration within a local cluster (direct access to the same disks) was much faster since it could be accomplished with minimal communication over channel-to-channel adapter and most of the stuff paged to disk (i.e. control tables memory mapped and paged just like application virtual memory) and then paged back in somewhere else. process migration between waltham and sanfran was a little slower since it all went over a 56kbit link.

in the late '70s, when there was the consolidation of the US HONE centers in palo alto ... there was max'ed out cluster (of SMPs) all connected to really huge disk farm (supporting all field, sales, branch office, people in the US ... I think there were approx. 40,000 user ids in the complex). About a year after the local cluster was all operational ... then it was replicated in Dallas (because of concerns of natural disasters in cal.) with cluster operation between Palo Alto and Dallas. Then a third cluster was integrated into the operation in Boulder.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone

later when we were doing HA/CMP ...
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp
we coined the term disaster survivability & geographic survivability ... as the extension to disaster recovery.

misc. past hot standby & peer-coupled shared data posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#35a Drive letters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#37 What is MVS/ESA?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40 Comparison Cluster vs SMP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availabilty on S/390
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#77 Are mainframes relevant ??
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#92 MVS vs HASP vs JES (was 2821)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#128 Examples of non-relational databases
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#13 Computer of the century
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#45 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#47 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#30 OT?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#54 360 Architecture, Multics, ... was (Re: X86 ultimate CISC? No.)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#69 Wheeler and Wheeler
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#70 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#71 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#44 Where are IBM z390 SPECint2000 results?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#44 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#13 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#14 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#18 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#47 five-nines
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#3 News IBM loses supercomputer crown
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#47 Sysplex Info
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#85 The demise of compaq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#73 Where did text file line ending characters begin?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#45 M$ SMP and old time IBM's LCMP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#14 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#68 META: Newsgroup cliques?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#54 Newbie: Two quesions about mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#37 Calculating expected reliability for designed system

misc. past disaster/geographic survivability posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#23 Fear of Multiprocessing?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#145 Q: S/390 on PowerPC?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#184 Clustering systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm2.htm#availability A different architecture? (was Re: certificate path
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay2.htm#cadis disaster recovery cross-posting
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#27 Could CDR-coding be on the way back?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#33 Where do the filesystem and RAID system belong?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#41 Where do the filesystem and RAID system belong?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#41 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#43 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#46 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#48 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#49 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#13 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#18 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#47 Sysplex Info
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#44 Calculating a Gigalapse
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#39 VAX, M68K complex instructions (was Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#67 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#68 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#4 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#24 CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#15 Large Banking is the only chance for Mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#5 Dumb Question - Hardend Site ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#54 Newbie: Two quesions about mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#38 Calculating expected reliability for designed system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#36 Super Anti War Computers

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM system 370

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM system 370
Newsgroups: comp.lang.asm370
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:44:52 GMT
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Jeff nor Lisa) writes:
While some of today's computing is executed on desktops or mini-type computers, a great deal of it remains executed on the traditional IBM mainframe, now sometimes called an "enterprise server". For one thing, as others pointed out, nothing can compare to the relability and speed of a network handling an incredible volume of complex transactions every second. For another, there are millions of existing lines of code that would cost billions of dollars to conver to another machine.

that was one of the business case justifications that amdahl cited in a talk given at MIT 30 years ago for starting amdahl corp ... that even if IBM walked totally away from 360/370 (as in FS, future System), there was at least hundred billion invested in existing 360/370 software that would keep amdahl corporation in business for at least 30 years.

misc. fs posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM system 370

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM system 370
Newsgroups: comp.lang.asm370
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 03:56:32 GMT
a little drift with some 7x24 thread and scheduled maintenance from a.f.c.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#28 OT What movies have taught us about Computers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#31 OT What movies have taught us about Computers

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

chad... the unknown story

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: chad... the unknown story...
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:22:53 GMT
Peter G Capek writes:
In the interest of historical accuracy... this story was told to me in the first person --

i.e., he did it -- by Marvin Minsky, and it took place as he was leaving 545 Tech Square, the building that housed Project Mac and the MIT AI Lab.

The guard was perfectly willing to let him take the pack out of the building, if only he could produce a property pass. Turned out that Minsky's boss at the time was the head of the University, Wiesner, and it seemed an inappropriate reason to bother him for that. Besides, dinner was getting cold. Hence the brilliant ploy.

Oh. The precise words were "Look -- it's empty."


the version related to me was by person that claimed to have done it at the toronto lab. with 2314 disk pack.

there is some overlap, since the person telling me was on assignment from canada to the vm/370 group ... which, at the time, was also housed in 545 tech sq (as well as housing the cambridge science center).

The cp/67 group originally was a minor split from the science center on 4th floor of 545 tech. sq. as cp/67 morphed into vm/370, it absorbed the boston programming center on the 3rd floor. when the vm/370 group ourgrew the 3rd floor, they moved into the sbc (which had been sold off to cdc) bldg in burlington mall.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

UNIX on LINUX on VM/ESA or z/VM

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Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:37:15 -0600
From: lynn@garlic.com
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.vmesa-l
Subject: UNIX on LINUX on VM/ESA or z/VM
At 21:41 AM 5/11/2003, Alan.Ackerman@bankofamerica.com wrote:
Nice complete summary. A few nits: There were 3 AIXes: one for RT-PC, one for RS/6000 and one for 390 (AIX/370 and AIX/ESA). They had nothing in common but the name. (Well, they borrowed ideas, some.)

IBM officially declared AIX/ESA unsupported a while back, with USS on MVS the replacement product.

Open Extension on VM is a subset of POSIX. It implements far less of Unix than USS. Porting may be possible, depending on which Unix services are >used. In particular, some uses of 'fork' work, and others do not.


There were two unix for the RT ... AIX and AOS. AIX started out as a AT&T Unix port by the people that had done the PC/IX port. AOS (different AOS than the code name for vs2/svs) started out as a port of BSD unix to VM/370 by the palo alto science center that was retargeted to the RT.

Many of the same Palo Alto people also responsible for the early work on UCLA's Locus unix ... which became AIX/370 and AIX/PS2 ... aka both AIX/370 and AIX/PS2 were UCLA Locus base. In some sense, the Locus work is SAA for unix ... supporting file and process migration and caching between the mainframe and PCs.

AIX for the RT evolved into AIX for RS/6000. One of the biggest differences between the AIX/RT and AIX/6000, was that the RT version was built on top of the VRM (virtual resource manager (a sort of abstract virtual machine layer, aix ran on top of RT's vrm, aos ran on the RT's bare metal) ... which was eliminated in the transition to the 6000.

misc. 801/romp/rios references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#801

long unix posting
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#54 Filesystems

random past postings:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#49 IBM RT PC (was Re: What does AT stand for ?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#64 distributed locking patents
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#8 IBM Linux
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#65 "all-out" vs less aggressive designs (was: Re: 36 to 32 bit transition)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#27 OCF, PC/SC and GOP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#68 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#69 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#70 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#44 Options for Delivering Mainframe Reports to Outside Organizat ions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#49 Options for Delivering Mainframe Reports to Outside Organizat ions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#18 Linux IA-64 interrupts [was Re: Itanium benchmarks ...]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#15 OS/360 (was LINUS for S/390)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#1 Anybody remember the wonderful PC/IX operating system?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#20 VM-CMS emulator
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#22 Early AIX including AIX/370
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#17 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#18 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#36 windows XP and HAL: The CP/M way still works in 2002
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#31 2 questions: diag 68 and calling convention
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#65 Bettman Archive in Trouble
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#54 Unisys A11 worth keeping?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#63 Hercules and System/390 - do we need it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#81 McKinley Cometh
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#36 Difference between Unix and Linux?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#54 SHARE MVT Project anniversary
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#67 Mainframe Spreadsheets - 1980's History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#40 I found the Olsen Quote
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#45 Linux paging
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#49 Filesystems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#8 IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM

IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM

Refed: **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
monopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:37:04 GMT
Charles Shannon Hendrix writes:
When I was at Bank of America, E&Y took dozens of kids out of college who had no Earthly idea what they were doing and put them on a contract which garanteed experts in the field. I could go on for pages about what these guys didn't know how to do.

Basically BoA paid E&Y to trains its workers.


before unbundling (6/23/69) ... there were be several system engineers assigned to a customer ship (several dozen for a large customer) ... including effectively interns right out of school (after possibly 6 to maybe 12 week orientation) . It is where the new hires got hands on experience with real live systems. After unbundling, everything was on a charged-for basis ... and there was no fee schedule for interns, which eliminated much of the learning ground for novices. No amount of training really replaces, live, hands on experience.

When I was undergraduate ... doing lots of operating system work ... there was a period of time (berore 6/23/69) where novice system engineers were rotated thru the university account every couple months ... in effect, I was given the opportunity for providing them intern training.

and for a little drift, some recent URLs to my favorite person regarding large organization operation:
http://www.post-gazette.com/World/20030413warspeedwp4.asp
http://www.forbes.com/2003/04/23/cz_df_0423ooda.html
http://ceo-notes.us/samplearticle.htm

in general:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html#boyd

misc. past past post re: unbundling
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#58 When did IBM go object only
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#18 On RC4 in C
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#30 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#27 IBM SHRINKS by 10 percent
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#28 OS Workloads : Interactive etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#62 Computers in Science Fiction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#44 50 years ago (1952)?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#2 IBM OS source code
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#7 myths about Multics
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#18 unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#56 Reviving Multics
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#58 40th Anniversary of IBM System/360
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#66 software pricing

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Does PowerPC 970 has Tagged TLBs (Address Space Identifiers)

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Does PowerPC 970 has Tagged TLBs (Address Space Identifiers)
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:03:27 GMT
behrangsa@yahoo.com (Behrang Saeedzadeh) writes:
As you know a tagged TLB is useful for improving performance in context switches so that it's not required to refill the entire TLB. When a context switch happens, the new context does not have to refill the TLB entries that their ASID is the same as its ASID.

The only processor that has a tagged TLB atchitecture and I'm aware of it is MIPS. Tagged TLBs are key to the success of microkernel based OSes.

I just wanted to know if the Power4 and PowerPC 970 architectures are equipped with tagged TLBs or not.


sort of the wrong question. lots of virtual memory architectures have associated TLB entries with address space. In the original 370 architecture this was referred to as STO-associative (segment table origin associative, where the segment table was the virtual address space specific table and STO or segment table origin was the address of that address space unique table).

With 801 (starting in the '70s) ... and inverted tables ... there was no longer an address space specific tables. 801, rather than having an address space in real storage than could be use as a tag to uniquely tag TLB-entries ... when to tag bits for each virtual segment. In the original 370 architecture, this was referred to as STE-associative (or PTO-associative .... TLB entries were tagged using the origin address of each segment page table).

ROMP supported a 12-bit tag. There were 16 segment registers (in 32-bit address) and the currently active address space was defined by loading specific tag values in each of the 16 segment registers. On a TLB miss, a new entry was loaded with the real address ... and the corresponding 12bit segment tag value. In this sense, there was no address space specific ID ... instead each virtual segment (256mbytes of 32-bit address space) had unique TLB tag. Not only wasn't it necessary to flush and reload the complex TLB on an address space switch ... but since the TLB entries were virtual segment associative ... rather than virtual address space associative ... it was possible for shared segments across multiple address spaces to share the same TLB entries.

The original 360/67 from the 60s didn't support multiple address spaces and therefor flushed and refilled the TLB (actually it had a fully associative arry) on each address space change.

The high-end 370s (sarting in the early '70s) had multi-tagged TLB. The 370/165 & 370/168 had a seven entry STO-stack ... aka it could remember up to seven STOs and there was a three bit TAG for each TLB ... corresponding to the seven STOs remembered in the STO-stack. Loading an active STO that wasn't in the STO stack ... resulted in scavenging one of the current seven STOs and flushing all of the corresponding TLB entires.

The 12bit segment-id tag for ROMP (PC/RT) from the early '80s ... gave rise to the reference that ROMP had 40bit virtual addressing (aka 28bit displacement of a segment plus 12bit tag). RIOS (RS/6000) doubled the segment-id tag bits to 24 ... giving rise to desciptions of RIOS having 52bit virtual addressing.

The mainframe 370 generations never did go to STE-associative ... even tho they were finding that half of the TLB entries tended to be shared kernel entries. In the early '80s ... the mainframe added a special super bit tag ... effectively which was the common tag that was to refer to the set of common, shared entries across all address spaces. This was a very specific case for the major operating system MVS.

related discussion on whether or not the TLB tag bits can be considered part of the virtual address space bits:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#0 Resolved: There Are No Programs With >32 Bits of Text
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#12 Resolved: There Are No Programs With >32 Bits of Text

misc. past 801/romp/rios refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#801

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

entity authentication with non-repudiation

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: entity authentication with non-repudiation
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:46:53 GMT
bicakcikemal@yahoo.com (Kemal Bicakci) writes:
Does anyone think of a situation where entity authentication (as opposed to message authentication) is needed to be supported with a non-repudiation service?

contracts, financial transactions, etc.

digital signatures say can be implemented with a hardware token ... where a hardware token requires a pin ... resulting in 2-factor authentication, aka something you have (token) and something you know (pin). However, this still doesn't actually convey the sense of intent, agrees, approves, and/or authorizes, in the sense of a human signature.

in simple message authentication in conjunction with entity authentication ... it is possible to establish that the message hasn't been modified since it was transmitted. however, that isn't sufficient to establish that a human agrees with the meaning of the contents of the message ... and that the human has even had access to some meaningful representation of the bits that were digitially signed.

non-repudiation can carry with it the concept that not only did you sign the message ... but you actually read, understood, agree with the contents of the message ... aka your digital signature shows an intention that you agree with the contents and meaning of the message ... not simply that you signed a message.

recent intention/non-repudiation discussions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#5 Meaning of Non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#6 Meaning of Non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#7 Meaning of Non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#8 Meaning of Non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#9 Meaning of Non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#11 Meaning of Non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#12 Meaning of Non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#13 Words, Books, and Key Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#14 Meaning of Non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#15 Meaning of Non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#19 Message (authentication/integrity); was: Re: CRC-32 collision
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#29 Message (authentication/integrity); was: Re: CRC-32 collision
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#37 unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#29 application of unique signature

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

OT What movies have taught us about Computers

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: OT What movies have taught us about Computers
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:32:57 GMT
"Charlie Gibbs" writes:
It's not as hairy as you make it out to be. The target instruction was never actually modified in memory. The modification occurred after the target instruction was fetched, and existed only in the CPU's internal work areas while the instruction was being executed. The operation did not have to be atomic in the sense of the Test and Set instruction.

one of the reasons that the 360/67 had to have at least eight entries in its look-aside buffer (for virtual address translation) was worst case scenario for execute instruction of an ss instruction. the (4 byte) execute instruction could cross a page boundary (i.e. 360/370 instructions only had to be aligned on half-word boundary) and the ss instruction could cross a page boundary (possibly four virtual pages for the two instructions). The from and to locations of the ss instruction could also cross page boundaries (possibly four more virtual pages for the from and to storage locations of the SS instruction). All eight virtual pages had to be available along with their virtual to real address translation.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM system 370

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM system 370
Newsgroups: comp.lang.asm370
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:19:14 GMT
"Demo" writes:
Oh yeah. To think I almost threw down for an XT/370 PC running VM/PC. My employer was prepared to let employees buy IBM gear at a good corporate rate with a dollar-down dollar-a-week payroll deduction scheme, but the deal fell flat.

Maybe a good thing on two fronts - for one, my 'dream' XT/370 loaded to the gunnels would have set me back 10 grand, and an IBM blue suit showed me the performance under VM/PC - a 50 statement FORTRAN compile and link took almost two minutes!


i got a lot of heat for doing paracore curve measurements on the original washington (xt/370, before first customer ship) which was going to only ship with 384k bytes for virtual pages. While CMS and things like the fortran compiler appear to have extremely relatively modest requirements on a mainframe (expecially compared to MVS & TSO bloat), a lot of that comes from caching, sharing pages across multiple users and "fast" disks. The original xt/370 with its disks emulated PC XT disks via dos at 100milliseconds per access (including filesystem, program loading, as well as page data sets) along with the constrained memory resulting in page thrashing (aka cms kernel plust application virtual memory requirements significantly larger than the 384k) and heavy arm contention between the filesystem and the page data set ... operating at peak thruput of ten accesses/sec).

somewhat as a result of my working set size benchamrking ... they did a little magic to the memory board and got another 128k bytes added, making 512k bytes available (but also resulted in a couple month delay in the product) ... which was still not quite enuf to keep many applications from page thrashing.

the a74 (which was in an expansion box to xt/at) did much better with 4mbyte memory and a processor engine that did 370 maybe ten times faster than the one on the xt/370 card. misc a74 references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#55 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#56 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#19 Very CISC Instuctions (Was: why the machine word size ...)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#51 DARPA was: Short Watson Biography
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#4 IBM Mainframe at home
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#27 End of Moore's law and how it can influence job market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#56 ECPS:VM DISPx instructions

random past xt/at/370 posts.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#42 bloat
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#23 Old IBM's
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#5 IBM XT/370 and AT/370 (was Re: Computer of the century)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#29 Operating systems, guest and actual
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#75 Mainframe operating systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#52 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#55 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#69 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#89 database (or b-tree) page sizes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#28 IBM's "VM for the PC" c.1984??
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#53 S/370 PC board
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#19 Very CISC Instuctions (Was: why the machine word size ...)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#20 Very CISC Instuctions (Was: why the machine word size ...)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#24 HP Compaq merger, here we go again.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#92 "blocking factors" (Was: Tapes)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#4 Buffer overflow
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#11 The demise of compaq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#43 IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#45 IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#4 IBM Mainframe at home
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#44 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#49 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#50 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#52 Mainframes and "mini-computers"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#50 crossreferenced program code listings
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#76 HONE was .. Hercules and System/390 - do we need it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#0 Resolved: There Are No Programs With >32 Bits of Text
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#8 Alpha performance, why?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#56 ECPS:VM DISPx instructions

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Segments, capabilities, buffer overrun attacks

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Segments, capabilities, buffer overrun attacks
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 00:22:15 GMT
"Andy Glew" <andy-glew-public@sbcglobal.net> writes:
We deserve you AS/400 folk saying "you told us so", just like the Burroughs, and CAP, and Unisys, and Multics, etc., people should.

And it is well worth revisiting what those old systems did.


and of course ... the lore is after future system was canceled, some number of the people migrated to rochester and did s/38 ... and then as/400:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys

another built by one of the vm/370 time-sharing service bureaus, tymshare ... originally called gnosis ... currently referred to as keykos.

keykos references:
http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~KeyKOS

from above:
KeyKOS is a persistent, pure capability operating system. In talking about it with many people over the past few years, I've received many requests for papers and other information. This page is an attempt to collect KeyKOS-related information in one place. The collection of papers provided here is available thanks to the cooperation of the publishers, the authors, and some seriously overworked OCR software.

EROS (the Extremely Reliable Operating System) is a close derivative of KeyKOS that runs on Intel-family machines. Further information on EROS can be found at the EROS Home Page


.... extremely reliable operating system:
http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~eros/

when m/d bought tymshare ... tymnet got sold off to bt ... and gnosis was spun off as an independent startup, key logic.

other keykos references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#69 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#73 7090 vs. 7094 etc.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#33 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#35 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#10 TSS/360
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#59 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#0 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#4 markup vs wysiwyg (was: Re: learning how to use a computer)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#43 IBM doing anything for 50th Anniv?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#63 Hercules and System/390 - do we need it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#75 30th b'day

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs.
 IBMmonopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 12:31:18 GMT
"Charlie Gibbs" writes:
The KISS principle has fallen into disrepute. Complexity is used as a weapon. Remember the saying in Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four": Ignorance is strength. Of course, it's the rulers who get strength from the ignorance of the ruled; the ignorance of the ruled cripples them so they are not a threat to the rulers' power.

non-KISS may also be used for various obfuscation activities ... possibly including things like sales & marketing (are these obfuscation activities?). some number of people have observed that frequently KISS is actually much harder than non-KISS.

misc past KISS refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay3.htm#gaping gaping holes in security
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep3 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#3dsecure4 3D Secure Vulnerabilities? Photo ID's and Payment Infrastructure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm2.htm#mcomfort Human Nature
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm3.htm#kiss1 KISS for PKIX. (Was: RE: ASN.1 vs XML (used to be RE: I-D ACTION :draft-ietf-pkix-scvp- 00.txt))
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm3.htm#kiss2 Common misconceptions, was Re: KISS for PKIX. (Was: RE: ASN.1 vs XML (used to be RE: I-D ACTION :draft-ietf-pkix-scvp-00.txt))
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm3.htm#kiss3 KISS for PKIX. (Was: RE: ASN.1 vs XML (used to be RE: I-D ACTION :draft-ietf-pkix-scvp- 00.txt))
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm3.htm#kiss4 KISS for PKIX. (Was: RE: ASN.1 vs XML (used to be RE: I-D ACTION :draft-ietf-pkix-scvp- 00.txt))
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm3.htm#kiss5 Common misconceptions, was Re: KISS for PKIX. (Was: RE: ASN.1 vs XML (used to be RE: I-D ACTION :draft-ietf-pkix-scvp- 00.txt))
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm3.htm#kiss6 KISS for PKIX. (Was: RE: ASN.1 vs XML (used to be RE: I-D ACTION :draft-ietf-pkix-scvp- 00.txt))
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm3.htm#kiss7 KISS for PKIX. (Was: RE: ASN.1 vs XML (used to be RE: I-D ACTION :draft-ietf-pkix-scvp- 00.txt))
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm3.htm#kiss8 KISS for PKIX
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm3.htm#kiss9 KISS for PKIX .... password/digital signature
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm3.htm#kiss10 KISS for PKIX. (authentication/authorization seperation)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#liex509 Lie in X.BlaBla...
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm7.htm#3dsecure 3D Secure Vulnerabilities?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm8.htm#softpki10 Software for PKI
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#hackhome Hackers Targeting Home Computers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#boyd AN AGILITY-BASED OODA MODEL FOR THE e-COMMERCE/e-BUSINESS ENTERPRISE
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#10 Federated Identity Management: Sorting out the possibilities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#30 Proposal: A replacement for 3D Secure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#19 TCPA not virtualizable during ownership change (Re: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#54 TTPs & AADS Was: First Data Unit Says It's Untangling Authentication
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#16 A challenge
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#20 surrogate/agent addenda (long)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay10.htm#76 Invisible Ink, E-signatures slow to broadly catch on (addenda)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay10.htm#77 Invisible Ink, E-signatures slow to broadly catch on (addenda)

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

OT What movies have taught us about Computers

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: OT What movies have taught us about Computers
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 12:54:25 GMT
Nick Spalding writes:
Are you sure about that? My recollection is that it could address any instruction and always modified the second byte of that instruction be it lengths, registers or immediate data.

it modified the 2nd byte for purposes of execution ... but not the storage contents occupied by the instruction. one of the big bugaboos in 370 pipelining for a long time was the possibility of a storage alteration resulting in changing an already fetched instruction (aka 360/65/67 had double-word instruction fetch, previous instruction might actually modify storage occupied by the following instruction which was already fetched).

some discussion of pro-rated i-fetch
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#10a Speed of APL on 360s, was Any DEC 340 Display System Doco ?

detailed description of execute instruction:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9AR004/7.5.37?DT=19970613131822

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

OT What movies have taught us about Computers

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: OT What movies have taught us about Computers
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:40:26 GMT
jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) writes:
Reasons this was HIGHLY discouraged - hard to debug since you don't see the resulting instruction - totally breaks any pipelining, particularly if the resulting instruction alters any register or memory used in adjacent/nearby instructions.

note that it was more recommended than the alternative ... execute instruction didn't actually modify storage ... and it was a specific instruction.

the alternative was that 360/370 had to check for the case that the previous instruction actually modified the storage occupied by the following instruction ... even if that instruction had already been fetched; aka on the 360/65/67 .. it used a double word i-fetch ... so the previous instruction (1st 4bytes) may have modified the storage occupied by the following instruction (2nd 4bytes) ... even tho the following instruction had already been fetched.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Question about Unix "heritage"

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Question about Unix "heritage"
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:21:51 GMT
rmk writes:
Well, talk is cheap. The original AIX, which ran on the IBM RT and PS/2 was based on SVR3. Current AIX, which runs only on Power based systems bears little resemblance to AT&T UNIX internally. A lot of the internals came from BSD. IBM went out of their way to have a UNIX operating system that was not tied to ATT.

interactive that had done the at&t pc/ix port for the pc ... did the at&t port to the rt running on top of the VRM (which required non-standard device drivers and some other characteristics). in the mid to late '80s there were a number of vendors attempting to offer both at&t as well as bsd semantics on the same platform (single offering that would satisfy everybody).

aixv3 for the 6000 had the addition of the journaled file system that utilized some unique hardware on rios to keep track of changed metadata that was periodically harvested for logging (as well as the elimination of the VRM from the RT). the palo alto group that did AOS (bsd) for the RT (to the bare metal w/o the vrm ... which was a project that had originally started out as bsd for 370), lots of the early locus work, misc. other unix related activities ... also did a version of the journaled file system with traditional logging calls (and no requirement for special rios hardware) ... which turned out to actually run faster (than the original version using the special hardware).

aix/ps2 and aix/370 were both ucla locus ports. basically locus file migration/caching as well as locus process migration. misc:
http://ficus-www.cs.ucla.edu/ficus-members/popek/index.html

here is a pdf file that is available several places on the net showing lots of unix lineage:
http://www.vicfug.au.freebsd.org/vicfug2002/freebsd_kernel/unix_a4.pdf

if you can follow across page breaks ... it does show locus being ancestor of aix/ps2 & aix/370. also locus (ucla locally cooperating unix systems) diverging prior to V7.

sort of the above file ...
http://home.highway.ne.jp/michio/oldmac/oshistory/UNIX_History.pdf

misc from search engine:
http://www.skypoint.net/members/probert/jun95-meeting.html

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

employee motivation & executive compensation

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: employee motivation & executive compensation
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:32:22 GMT
mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) writes:
At those lofty heights, the real job is to interact, to control, to promote, to conceptualize strategy. So all those jobs you list are in fact the same job, and can be done in the same place at the same time with the same action. Only the pay arrangements are separate.

slightly related is boyd's talked titled organic design for command and control ... hard copies are at the Marine Corps museum.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html#boyd

a html version

http://www.belisarius.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/20010722050327/http://www.belisarius.com/

last section that i had transcribed from long ago and far way (the copy i transcribed from was a slightly earlier version than presented in the above belisarius web site, aka 1983 vis-a-vis 1987):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#8

Illumination
------------

Reflection upon the statements associated with the Epitome of Command and Control leave one unsettled as to the accuracy of these statements. Why? Command, by definition, means to direct, order, or compel while control means to regulate, restrain, or hold to a certain standard as well as to direct or command.

Against these standards it seems that the command and control (C&C) we are speaking of is different than the kind that is being applied. In this sense, the C&C we are speaking of seems more closely aligned to leadership (rather than command) and to some kind of monitoring ability (rather than control) that permits leadership to be effective.

In other words, leadership with monitoring, rather than C&C, seems to be a better way to cope with the multi-faceted aspects of uncertainty, change, and stress. On the other hand, monitoring, per se, does not appear to be an adequate substitute for control. Instead, after some sorting and reflection, the idea of appreciation seems better. Why? First of all, appreciation includes the recognition of worth or value and the idea of clear perception as well as the ability to monitor. Moreover, next, it is difficult to believe that leadership can even exist without appreciation.

Pulling these threads together suggests that appreciation and leadership offer a more appropriate and richer means than C&C for shaping and adapting to circumstances.


--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Segments, capabilities, buffer overrun attacks

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Segments, capabilities, buffer overrun attacks
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:48:56 GMT
"del cecchi" writes:
So try running one of those capability things on a processor that you knock together out of a FPGA and see why they didn't take over the world. :-)

one of the "nails" in the FS coffin ... before some of the people migrated to rochester to do s/38 ... was somebody's (I think from the houston science center) calculation that if FS was implemented using the fastest 370 technology (aka 370/195) and some specific applications rewritten for FS (that currently ran on 370/195) would have thruput less than 370/145 (aka 10 to 30 times slower). random FS:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

How is a smartcard created?

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: How is a smartcard created?
Newsgroups: alt.technology.smartcards
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:03:13 GMT
joez1900@yahoo.com (Joe) writes:
I'm a student and I was wondering if anybody can me tell how smartcards are produce? Do they use the same technology as credit cards?

tends on what part you are talking about. smartcards tend to follow iso7861. part of iso7861 have to do with the plastic ... the size & shape of payment cards ... and along the way one of the periodic problems for "smartcards" has been sometimes the iso7861 flexing standards (basically following payment card that gets put in a wallet and possibly sat on, etc).

then there are sims that are slightly larger than the contact case that a chip is fitted into. these get manufactured, printed, etc in 7816/payment plastic card form factor ... but have slots punched out around the contact case ... so you get something that easily fits inside stuff like cell phone (aka most of the plastic card removed, but leverages all the existing manufacturing facilities).

lots of smartcard manufacturing starts with standard white plastic payment card ... which then has depression milled out for the chip contact case to be fitted into. color and printed then is added afterwards as in standard (magstripe) payment card operation.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

How is a smartcard created?

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: How is a smartcard created?
Newsgroups: alt.technology.smartcards
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:53:19 GMT
Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes:
tends on what part you are talking about. smartcards tend to follow iso7861. part of iso7861 have to do with the plastic ... the size & shape of payment cards ... and along the way one of the periodic problems for "smartcards" has been sometimes the iso7861 flexing standards (basically following payment card that gets put in a wallet

finger slip ... should be iso7816 ... not iso7861

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Question about Unix "heritage"

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Question about Unix "heritage"
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:31:40 GMT
rmk writes:
When IBM bought Sequent they would have acquired all the x86 SMP IP that Sequent wrote. Some of that IP also ended up in SVR4 MP through Sequent/ATT deals.

back about the time netscape first put in a large sequent server for software downloads ... (netscape had been rapidly adding multiple non-sequent servers and asking people to choose different addresses, this was before routers with load-balancing rotation, this was also the leading edge of fixes for the finwait problem) ... sequent claimed to have been responsible for majority of the NT SMP technology and having addressed the finwait problem long before.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

employee motivation & executive compensation

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: employee motivation & executive compensation
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:01:28 GMT
Charles Shannon Hendrix writes:
Was Boyd in favor of or against current top-heavy military and corporate structures? It's hard to tell from some things I've read.

where there are references ... he is frequently credited with manuever warfare; adaptive reaction to threats of force rather than taking and holding positiongs; somewhat interpreted as the application of fighter plane dog fights to land warfare.

the whole OODA-loop paradigm (that he invented) is extremely skilled, knowledgable, well traiend, agile, and adaptive people and organizations. OODA-loop, operating much faster/agile than competition also implies observation interpreted with understanding and wisdom.

He made some references that the top heavy, cumbersome infrastructures were a reflection of many young people having obtained their training and orientation for running large organization in the US Army in WW2 ... and finally coming of age, in charge of many of these large institutions.

There was observations that going into WW2, the US had enormous numbers of 90 day wonders with little or no experience. To leverage the scarce amount of any experience ... extremely tightly-controlled organization was created that relied on enormous amounts of resources under extremely strict, top-down heavy-handed control. Strategy was to win operations with ten to one resource superiority.

That was contrasted with the blitzkrieg where Guderian directed verbal orders only. There was somewhat assumption that the definition of auditors were those people that go around the battlefield after the war, stabbing the wounded. Lack of paper trail, helped incent the person on the spot to make dynamic, adaptive decisions.

misc. past refs to verbal orders only
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#120 atomic History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#29 Review of Steve McConnell's AFTER THE GOLD RUSH
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#16 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#36 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#38 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)

misc. boyd refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#boyd

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Question about Unix "heritage"

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Question about Unix "heritage"
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:08:33 GMT
Michael Wojcik writes:
Did they? I'm having trouble thinking of examples, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

4.3 tahoe/renoe tcp/ip support.
I know you were there, Lynn, whereas I didn't start at IBM until around the time AOS became available, but wasn't a bunch of the AOS work done at Cambridge by the ACIS (later TCS) group? I thought I remembered David Berkowitz, Terry Glunz, Bill Willard and so forth in the credits when I was hacking support for our prototype imaging cards into the kernel. (I thought I had found confirmation of this in a quick Google search, but it turned out to be a 1998 posting by me.)

there was stuff at cambridge involving unix activities ... but had more at&t content ... both targeted at vm/370 as well as tss/370 ... "rip" in the following was at cambridge:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#4a
aka, work going on circa 1982.

note that during this period palo alto was working with locus and had locus up and running on a combination of 68k and s/1 platforms

guy that was in charge of the apl group in stl ... transferred to palo alto in 1986 to head up (new) group doing the bsd port to vm/370. I was involved early on ... in part because i had been working on getting a C front-end to vs/pascal ... and in the middle of that, the person that had was doing work left and joined metaware (the pascal work had been done by two people from the los gatos VLSI lab using some amount of metaware technologies, the other person had left a couple years early to go on to be vp of software development at mips). i followed up with the palo alto group regarding using metaware for the c 370 compiler (based in part on the work of the same person). when the bsd work was retargeted to the rt, the metaware compiler was kept as the basis. misc. metaware refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#20 Is Al Gore The Father of the Internet?^
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#66 Mainframe Spreadsheets - 1980's History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#19 Beyond 8+3
(Wonder what happened to those folks after the Cambridge Scientific Center was closed? The most recent mention I could find for them with a little Googling was a 1996 Usenet post from Dave. There's a David Berkowitz at Verisign, but he seems to be more a PR person, so I suspect it's a different one.)

csc moved out of 4th 545 tech sq down the street to 101 main street and then all the science centers were dissolved. when my wife were doing ha/cmp in our skunk works ... we subcontracted out much of the work to CLaM ... "C" was for guy that had been part of science center in the 60s and part of the cp/67 group. he moved to gburg/fsd in the late 60s ... and at one time was responsible for part of FS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys
and my wife worked for him at that time. he retired and returned to the boston area in the late 80s ... and founded (initially) 3 person software company with the initials of the founders. As ha/cmp (& CLaM) work ramped up ... CLaM took over the science center quarters at 101 main ... after the science center was dissolved (and hired some number of csc people).

some number of CSC alumni seem to be working at state street. We recently compiled email list ... both from the 545 tech sq era ... as well as 101 main street era; in part because of:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#60 founder, cambridge science center
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Question about Unix "heritage"

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Question about Unix "heritage"
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:30:13 GMT
Michael Wojcik writes:
I know you were there, Lynn, whereas I didn't start at IBM until around the time AOS became available, but wasn't a bunch of the AOS work done at Cambridge by the ACIS (later TCS) group? I thought I remembered David Berkowitz, Terry Glunz, Bill Willard and so forth in the credits

... oh yes, after initial AOS was done ... a lot of work was done by general ACIS, general cambridge science center ... but also in support of Project Athena ... both by cambridge and ACIS. DEC & IBM had both funded project athena equally to the tune of $25m each ... and a lot of that (on ibm side) were AOS-based RTs ... and some unix on PS2s.

Some number of the people were IBMers working on project athena stuff at the science center ... and some number were IBMers directly assigned to project athena. One of the letters in CLaM (project athena, pre-CLaM, pre-hacmp) was getting both 8514 display support and megapel display support into X (my wife and I did some audit visits to project athena ... i have recollections of sitting thru detailed description of Kerberos for cross-domain, inter-organization support)

random project athena refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#35a Drive letters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#37 What is MVS/ESA?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#33 John Mashey's greatest hits
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#54 Unisys A11 worth keeping?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#18 cost of crossing kernel/user boundary
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#46 Horror stories: high system call overhead
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#50 Origin of Kerberos
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#2 IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#3 IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Smartcards and devices

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Smartcards and devices
Newsgroups: comp.security.misc
Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:46:53 GMT
"Dave Thornburgh" <dave-thorn@nodash.adelphia.net> writes:
Is it going to be a "debit the balance I've loaded onto my card", or more of a "trust the card to identify me as somebody who bought the monthly pass" kind of thing? E-cash, or just stronger identification?

one of the widest deployed stored value cards are the online magstripe "gift" cards that you see thruout the US that can be bought at large percentage of retail checkout counters.

some of the most succesful stored-value chip cards have been the transit cards ... the cubic cards in the US ... the octopus card (from mitsubishi/sony) originally deployed for subway/bus/etc transit in Hong Kong. The transit chip cards have been contactless/proximity with relatively tight timing requirements (100ms transaction thru transit gate). the various competing transit proximity chip cards have contributed to the proliferation of acceptable specifications in iso 14443. the majority of these have been anonymous stored-value ... in part because of the tight timing requirements getting thru the transit gate (especially in the subway/light-rail systems).

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

PKINIT

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: PKINIT
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.kerberos
Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:08:26 GMT
Lun writes:
I am now currently installing krb5-1.2.7. Can I perform certificate authentication between my KDC and client? How to configure a certificate-authenticated principal in my KDC? and How to get the certificates for my KDC and principal?

PKINIT allows for initial public key (aka digital signature) authentication. PKINIT allows for the public key to be provided in a number of different ways .... either via certificate provided public key ... as well as registering the public key in effectively the same manner that a password would be registered.

It isn't mandated that the method for conveying the public key (for authenticating the corresponding digital signature) only be done by certificate-based process. It is possible to use existing business process for registering authentication material ... for register public key in same business process that would be used for registering a password. In this manner, the business process stays the same, but it changes from a shared-secret based authentication material to a non-shared-secret based authentication material.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

The figures of merit that make mainframes worth the price

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: The figures of merit that make mainframes worth the price
Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:40:53 GMT
rmyers1400@attbi.com (Robert Myers) writes:
Compared to these reasons, I think that ease of maintenance and even uptime are relatively unimportant. Any mission-critical system has a failover mechanism; uptime only determines how often the failover is invoked. As to ease of administration, no one spends millions of dollars so that sysadmins can feel comfortable.

it has been at least 20 years since published reports that software failure far outnumber hardware failures.

i've mentioned before that one of the largest high-value financial networks attributed 100 percent availability over extended number of years to
• ims hot-standby (failure take-over technology)
automated operator


the mainframe batch systems forever have had orientation that the entities responsible for running the application aren't actually there. the batch system paradigms have evolved a number of features over the last 30-40 years to handle situation where the programs & applications are to run in automated fashion (compared to the interactive platforms that are oriented towards default of presenting messages to a human that is presumably present & responsible for running the program).

the early years of batch system tended to have human "operators" for handling various tasks that hadn't yet been totally automated (mounting necessary disk packs or tapes); these weren't the people actually responsible for the operation of the application ... but for performing activities at the programs request (as opposed to the somewhat reverse interactive paradigm where the application is performing tasks at the human's request).

In any case, humans sometimes make mistakes ... even operators that supposedly are performing very specific tasks under system direction. automated operator ... was to remove human mistake element which was becoming a larger percentage of failures ... as other factors were being eliminated.

random past automated operator refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#2 Schedulers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availabilty on S/390
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#107 Computer History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#128 Examples of non-relational databases
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#136a checks (was S/390 on PowerPC?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#22 Computer of the century
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#12 Amdahl Exits Mainframe Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#43 Life as a programmer--1960, 1965?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#13 LINUS for S/390
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#70 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#71 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#44 Where are IBM z390 SPECint2000 results?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#47 Where are IBM z390 SPECint2000 results?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#8 VM: checking some myths.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#14 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#18 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#47 five-nines
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#47 Sysplex Info
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#85 The demise of compaq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#24 Buffer overflow
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#68 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#73 Where did text file line ending characters begin?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#62 Itanium2 performance data from SGI
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#27 why does wait state exist?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#14 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#54 Newbie: Two quesions about mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#37 Calculating expected reliability for designed system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#3 Disk capacity and backup solutions

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

employee motivation & executive compensation

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: employee motivation & executive compensation
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:05:41 GMT
Charles Shannon Hendrix writes:
Um... getting the job done REQUIRES looking at things like a top-heavy structure, because those things keep work from getting done.

there are two biographies out and supposedly a 3rd coming. some of the information is covered in web sites. boyd told several stories of fighting the f15 design .... getting its weight cut in half ... and then doing the alternative f16. while there was lots of technical stuff that had to be done ... boyd had one story that the opposition/pentagon pressing charges that he had mis-used tens of millions of gov. funding ... that his work on f16 design was not approved and f16 design obviously required tens of millions in super-computer time to achieve ... so obviously he was guilty of mis-using tens of millions of gov. funding. The story is that after an extremely extensive investigation, no record could be found of the computer time he used in designing the f16.

he also tells of spending over a year carefully preparing for the 18 page newsweek article (in the early '80s) ... so that when it hit ... there was a very carefully crafted paper trail covering all material. Various forces in the pentagon spent so much time trying to pin something worng on him ... that supposedly in frustration (over not finding any violations) there was an edict relocating him from the pentagon to some place in alaska along with a ban that he could never enter the pentagon again.

there use to be a URL on the web (at infowar.com?) with an image of the newsweek cover and some details of the article.

misc. general overview:
http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/boyd_thesis.htm
and of course:
http://www.belisarius.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/20010722050327/http://www.belisarius.com/

and
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html#boyd

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

employee motivation & executive compensation

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: employee motivation & executive compensation
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:23:04 GMT
Charles Shannon Hendrix writes:
So we abandon it, or it hasn't fully caught on?

Seems like at least some of our military has the idea, but its still awfully bloated.

A former coworker from the US Navy used to joke about the Navy being 10% lead and gunpowder, 60% iron, and 30% brass.


I just ran across a line in one of the URL's related to boyd ... that it isn't a set of rules to be followed ... but a way of thinking about the enemy/advisary.

there was article in the early '90s during desert storm about boyd's fight to change how america fights ... and his "jedi knights" ... the current crop of majors & cols that have heard him lecture in various places.

there was supposedly some recent quote attributed to cheney that one of the problems that they were facing in the current action in the mideast was that boyd wasn't still here to put it all together (again); again see bios and various online refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html#boyd

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
 monopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 01:18:05 GMT
there is joke in the redmond area that m'soft was actually a ploy to sell real-estate ... that supposedly the people that owned all the housing developments created m'soft in order to get people into the seattle area to buy their housing ... and the aggregation of all the housing sales to m'soft employees exceeds the salaries paid to m'soft employees (i.e. the housing developers could provide the money for salaries out of the profits from the house sales.).

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

The figures of merit that make mainframes worth the price

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: The figures of merit that make mainframes worth the price
Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:24:18 GMT
"Bill Todd" writes:
Continued operation in the face of system partitioning (e.g., by prolonged loss of communication) is much more difficult (though again approaches such as those defining a 'primary' site for each datum and allowing continued execution of transactions that have access to all primary copies of all their data can help). But continued operation in the face of hardware failure is a solved problem (at least if adequate hardware redundancy is configured and as long as the failure can be detected before properly-functioning neighbors accepot corrupted data from it).

note that state partitioning for geographic survivability is similar to automated operator .... the general case may not be theoritically provable ... but subsetting the problem to predictable set of failure modes is possible.

the claim is that the basis for parallel sysplex is peer-coupled shared data that my wife originated when she did her stint in POK responsible for loosely-coupled architecture (aka interconnected, but non-shared memory multiprocessor operation).

when we were doing ha/cmp,
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp

we coined the terms disaster survivability and geographic survivability (as contrast to the more common disaster/recovery). we were asked to write a section in the corporate continuous availability strategy document ... however, both Rochester and POK non-concurred with what we had written (in part because at the time they had no products that could support such operation).

lots of past disaster/geographic survivability & peer-coupled shared data postings:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#23 Fear of Multiprocessing?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40 Comparison Cluster vs SMP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availabilty on S/390
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#77 Are mainframes relevant ??
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#92 MVS vs HASP vs JES (was 2821)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#100 Why won't the AS/400 die? Or, It's 1999 why do I have to learn how to use
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#128 Examples of non-relational databases
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#145 Q: S/390 on PowerPC?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#184 Clustering systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#13 Computer of the century
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#30 OT?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#37 OT?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#27 Could CDR-coding be on the way back?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#33 Where do the filesystem and RAID system belong?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#41 Where do the filesystem and RAID system belong?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#73 7090 vs. 7094 etc.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#69 Wheeler and Wheeler
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#71 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#2 Block oriented I/O over IP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#44 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#76 Other oddball IBM System 360's ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#41 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#43 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#46 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#48 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#49 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#13 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#18 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#47 Sysplex Info
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#44 Calculating a Gigalapse
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#54 Computer Naming Conventions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#39 VAX, M68K complex instructions (was Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#67 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#68 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#4 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#6 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#48 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#12 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#24 CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#69 Hercules and System/390 - do we need it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#45 M$ SMP and old time IBM's LCMP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#15 Large Banking is the only chance for Mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#5 Dumb Question - Hardend Site ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#67 Mainframe Spreadsheets - 1980's History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#68 META: Newsgroup cliques?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#54 Newbie: Two quesions about mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#35 HASP:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#38 Calculating expected reliability for designed system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#67 unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#36 Super Anti War Computers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#9 Why did TCP become popular ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#31 OT What movies have taught us about Computers

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

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