List of Archived Posts
2003 Newsgroup Postings (5/2 - 5/20)
- Escon vs Ficon Cost
- IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
- IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
- Calculations involing very large decimals
- chad... the unknown story
- IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
- IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
- Why did TCP become popular ?
- IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
- Why did TCP become popular ?
- Why did TCP become popular ?
- Why did TCP become popular ?
- Do Data Models Need to built on a Mathematical Concept?
- Authentication protocol
- IBM system 370
- Mainframe Tape Drive Usage Metrics
- Why did TCP become popular ?
- Why did TCP become popular ?
- Authentication protocol
- Why did TCP become popular ?
- UT200 (CDC RJE) Software for TOPS-10?
- IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
- Why did TCP become popular ?
- Authentication protocol
- HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
- HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
- HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
- IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
- OT What movies have taught us about Computers
- application of unique signature
- Hardware support of "new" instructions
- OT What movies have taught us about Computers
- IBM system 370
- IBM system 370
- chad... the unknown story
- UNIX on LINUX on VM/ESA or z/VM
- IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
- Does PowerPC 970 has Tagged TLBs (Address Space Identifiers)
- entity authentication with non-repudiation
- OT What movies have taught us about Computers
- IBM system 370
- Segments, capabilities, buffer overrun attacks
- IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs
- OT What movies have taught us about Computers
- OT What movies have taught us about Computers
- Question about Unix "heritage"
- employee motivation & executive compensation
- Segments, capabilities, buffer overrun attacks
- How is a smartcard created?
- How is a smartcard created?
- Question about Unix "heritage"
- employee motivation & executive compensation
- Question about Unix "heritage"
- Question about Unix "heritage"
- Smartcards and devices
- PKINIT
- The figures of merit that make mainframes worth the price
- employee motivation & executive compensation
- employee motivation & executive compensation
- IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
- The figures of merit that make mainframes worth the price
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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Escon vs Ficon Cost
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:58:37 GMT
EBIE@PHMINING.COM (Eric Bielefeld) writes:
FICON is much more expensive.
Cards for CEC are more expensive and cards for the device (DASD box,
etc.) are more expensive too. Cables - I guess - it's not an issue.
FICON switches are more expensive too.
You must use more ESCON links for the same bandwith but it's still cheaper.
Of course good salesman can make miracle with the prices...
in the late '80s, escon had been kicking around the company for
something like ten plus years. one of the 6000 engineers did some
optimization ... for about 10 percent more bandwidth and using
different parts for about 1/10th the cost ... on the 6000 it was
called SLA (serial link adapter) ... aka there were discussions with
some of the cdrom manufactures about using common parts.
then there was an effort to start on the 800mbit version of SLA (aka
enhanced escon) about 1990. work on FCS (fiber channel standard) had
started circa 1987 ... and people were convinced that rather than
doing a 800mbit version of SLA ... that instead participation in FCS
would be more productive. In some sense, HiPPI was driven by LANL to
do a "standard" of cray parallel copper channel and FCS was driven by
LLNL to do a "standard" of a serial (then) copper non-blocking switch
infrastructure that they were using.
In the 91/92 time-frame, discussions that periodically consumed large
amounts of time/bandwidth in the FCS meetings & mailing lists was
efforts by POK-oriented participants on how to craft half-duplex
support (aka ibm channel) into the higher level FCS protocols. It
turns out to be much harder than many people think to make a
full-duplex paradigm .... conform to half-duplex conventions.
Full-duplex automatically assumes that stuff can be flowing
simultaneously in both direction. Half-duplex tends to have all sorts
of sequencing/serialization requirements..
It would have been much simpler to map SSA (effectively a full-duplex
mapping of SCSI to serial copper) to FCS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13 SSA
minor ref:
http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/tip/1,289483,sid5_gci884574,00.html
from above:
Mainframe FICON channels and RS/6000 fiber channel HBAs are both
variations of the FC standard. At the physical level and the lower
protocol levels, both are identical. It is easy to think of a channel
and an HBA being the same.
minor other refs:
http://www.fibrechannel.org/OVERVIEW/software.html
http://www.aboutsans.com/san_workshop/ibm_inrange_451.php
random past fiber-channel refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#16 Dual-ported disks?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#17 Dual-ported disks?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#15 tcp/ip
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#26 System/360 Model 30
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#5 360/44 (was Re: IBM 1130 (was Re: IBM 7090--used for business or
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#30 Drive letters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40 Comparison Cluster vs SMP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#49 Edsger Dijkstra: the blackest week of his professional life
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#54 Fault Tolerance
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#125 Q: S/390 on PowerPC?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#22 Cache coherence [was Re: TF-1]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#56 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#59 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#68 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#14 FW: RS6000 vs IBM Mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#31 OT?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#46 Small IBM shops
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#69 Wheeler and Wheeler
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#66 commodity storage servers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#17 I hate Compaq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#5 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#22 ESCON Channel Limits
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#25 ESCON Data Transfer Rate
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#28 OS Workloads : Interactive etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#32 What goes into a 3090?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#33 ESCON Distance Limitations - Why ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#78 Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#18 AS/400 and MVS - clarification please
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#83 HONE
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#15 Unisys A11 worth keeping?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#45 M$ SMP and old time IBM's LCMP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#78 Future interconnects
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#0 Clustering ( was Re: Interconnect speeds )
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#37 Why only 24 bits on S/360?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#57 Another light on the map going out
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#40 inter-block gaps on DASD tracks
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
monopoly
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 16:09:30 GMT
hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes:
It could be. Oddly, they have no picture. But it doesn't tell whether
it's cotton or blended; I think all of Shepler's solid whites are
blended (which make me quite uncomfortable.)
there is a sheplers about a mile from my current position (assuming
talking about the same company) ... i'll drive right by it in an
hour or two.
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
monopoly
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 16:09:30 GMT
hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes:
It could be. Oddly, they have no picture. But it doesn't tell whether
it's cotton or blended; I think all of Shepler's solid whites are
blended (which make me quite uncomfortable.)
there is a sheplers about a mile from my current position (assuming
talking about the same company) ... i'll drive right by it in an
hour or two.
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Calculations involing very large decimals
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 18:28:05 GMT
Brian Inglis writes:
I remember seeing the Matsushita (aka Panasonic/Quasar) name on a
number of parts in IBM equipment used 24x7, so they're probably
pretty reliable (on the order of 10 years with zero failures).
slightly related ... although a little drift
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#0 Escon vs Ficon Cost
the following ref trip was a couple years before the time-frame
mentioned in the above:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#33b High Speed Data Transport (HSDT)
it was first time i walked a surface mount assembly line (outside
osaka). I watched the boards pass under this line ... and it was
almost like it was spraying black paint on the board. there was a
rumor that a single surface mount assembly machine might exist in the
US at the time ... but the rumor was standard chips that had the pins
cut-off flush with the bottom of the chip (as opposed to surface mount
chips). surface mount implied that you could paint both sides of the
board with chips .... and real surface mount with the contacts
directly underneath the chips, implied that you could pack them closer
together on the board.
at the time, I was dealing with these $6k modems and I claimed I could
get better FEC (reed-solomon) and optical drivers in a $300 cd player
... and the servo-motor was for free.
other refs related to the optical drivers:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#25 ESCON Data Transfer Rate
there were some numbers from the time that because of the volumes in
the consumer electronic industry ... that better QA up-front had
bigger pay-off vis-a-vis the computer industry (modulo issues of
mechanical parts and duty cycles). Possibly some idea that higher
profit margin in the computer industry tolerated a much higher
scrap/failure. on the other hand it might just be similar to what hit
the auto industry.
random surface mount ref:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#27 End of Moore's law and how it can influence job market
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: chad... the unknown story...
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 18:33:10 GMT
boebert@swcp.com (Earl Boebert) writes:
Well, at Stanford in the 50's we all called it "chad." Hamming
told the story of pulling the chain of the (evidently not too
bright) Bell Labs security officer by showing him the chad bucket and
informing him that "every number we punched is in there."
there is the story of somebody in the early '70s walking out of
toronto lab. carrying a 2314 disk pack ... and the guard asking if the
person had a property pass signed by a manager. the person held the
disk pack up to the light (so the guard could look between the
platters) and said, its ok, all the data has been removed.
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
monopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:00:22 GMT
jmfbahciv writes:
There was never time allotted in our development to improve performance.
Once in a great while there would be a project to do that. For some
strange reason, the person assigned to do the job would turn out
to be a nincompoop. We did it on our own time in between the
rest of the work. There was usually a span of a couple of weeks
where developers could take a look at performance; this happened
just before we went field test. After the first field test ship,
performance improvements were purposely ignored; tweaking invariably
introduced more bugs (this was NOT ALLOWED during field test).
periodically security was like that .... if there was a brand new,
temporary activity ... who would you give up to work on it ... the
absolutely critical people on the existing project ... or some
non-critical person?? it seemed that all new projects, by definition,
got the non-critical people.
then there were whole organizations ... which i sometime referred to
as NFL theory of project allocation. If you were assigning a brand new
project to an organization ... whould you choose an organization that
was currently doing (succesfully) some critical product ... or an idle
organization that had their previous project(s) canceled?
i got to do performance ... as well as things like structural
re-organization (like for serialization eliminating large number of
timing dependent bugs and all cases of zombie/hung processes) ... in
part because, for the most part, i stayed in staff position and out of
direct line responsibility. even the benchmarking methodology for the
resource manager took time to develop ... and the validation
benchmarks for the first release of the resource manager took 3 months
elapsed time to run. misc. recent refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#15 Disk capacity and backup solutions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#30 One Processor is bad?
misc general:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#technology
i.e.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#fairshare performance &/or scheduling
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#wsclock working set, lru, wsclock page replacement
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#bench benchmarking, workload profile, capacity planning
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#smp multiprocessor, tightly-coupled, smp, compare and swap
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#dumprx problem determination, zombies, dump readers
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
monopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:23:29 GMT
"Rupert Pigott" writes:
CPU --> Registers --> L1 Cache --> L2 Cache --> L3 Cache
--> RAM --> Disk.
there is recent thread regarding number of physical and logical
registers might not be the same. In general l1/l2/l3/ram/disk caching
is transparent to the application code ... while the register caching
isn't. however with pipelining and possibly out-of-order execution
there are effectively physical registers where logical register values
get temporarily stuffed/cached by the cpu.
recent discussion regarding multi-cpu shared (processor) cache and
global LRU vis-a-vis. local LRU strategies ... and various
file/record/data caching strategies for disks, controllers, bus,
systems:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#55 Advantages of multiple cores on single chip
misc. working set, case, etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#wsclock
and in managed storage ... the disk are caches for things that have
home position in big silos ... aka where is the line between
backup/archive and hierarchical storage.
random unitree, datatree, lincs, mesa archival, wdsf, adsm, tsm, etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#21 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#22 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#66 commodity storage servers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#2 Why is UNIX semi-immune to viral infection?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#66 Holy Satanism! Re: Hyper-Threading Technology - Intel information.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#3 IBM's "old" boss speaks (was "new")
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#10 Deleting files and emails at Arthur Andersen and Enron
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#46 What goes into a 3090?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#61 GE 625/635 Reference + Smart Hardware
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#29 Computers in Science Fiction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#24 Definition of Non-Repudiation ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#8 Avoiding JCL Space Abends
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#31 general networking is: DEC eNet: was Vnet : Unbelievable
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#25 Beyond 8+3
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#29 360/370 disk drives
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#31 360/370 disk drives
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#43 VMFPLC2 tape format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#9 IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:15:47 GMT
"Skybuck Flying" writes:
4. TCP/IP is supported by routers and therefor routable across big
networks allowing anybody to communicate with anybody.
http://www.computerworld.com/networkingtopics/networking/story/0,10801,42984
IP introduced a new paradigm, the internetworking layer ... with
gateways ... that allowed interconnection of networks (great switch
over 1/1/83). ref: NCP/TCP Transition Plan, rfc801
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcidx2.htm#801
This is also along the lines of some recent OSI discussions. IP,
LANs, and OSI all happened about the same time.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#44 Rewrite TCP/IP
OSI (and arpanet) were homogeneous and didn't allow for gateways and
interconnection of (possibly heterogeneous) networks. IP layer doesn't
exist in the OSI model. the concept of interconnection of
heterogeneous networks was somewhat novel (although the internal
network had effectively gateway-type support in every node from nearly
the start in nearly time-frame as arpanet start; and was, in fact
larger than the internet until sometime in the 1985 time-frame, after
the ip cut-over).
OSI also didn't allow for LANs ... and in fact, later in the '80s when
attempting to do high-speed protocol standard ... which would go
directly from transport/layer4 directly to LAN interface ... it was
observed that couldn't be done in ISO because it violated OSI and ISO
(and ISO chartered national standards bodies) were under constraint
that only OSI conforming standards could be done. the problem with
LANs is that it reached up into the middle of layer3 ... and any
protocol that interfaced directly to LAN interface violated the OSI
model. The appearance of LANs, homogeneous network paradigms supported
multiple LAN collections with bridge methodologies ... while IP had
the option of gateways.
IETF process requires interoperable implementation for standards to
progress. most other standards bodies don't require that actual
implementations ever occur.
misc.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#networking
i.e.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#xtphsp OSI and High Speed Protocol
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internet misc. arpanet, nsfnet, internet
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm
and my ietf/rfc index:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
monopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:29:22 GMT
"Rupert Pigott" writes:
Also from the point of view of performance these things
are not transparent, and the evidence for this is in
the way people mash up their lovely HLL code to get the
low-hanging fruit.
from the standpoint of the application code they tend to be
transparent, from the standpoint of the application ... the
performance issues might not be transparent. somebody might choose to
use different code in the application because of things like
performance issues. or to re-arrange the code ... as per vs/repack.
while vs/repack (the product) was primarily marketed as semi-automated
code restructuring for paging environments, it was also used for
various other performance optimization activities (cache sensitivity).
a big activity in the 3081 time-frame (early 80s) was restructing
kernel storage allocation for cache sensity (aligning allocation on
cache boundaries and in units of cache lines) because of significant
cross-cache trashing in SMP environment when different storage units
overlapped in the same cache line.
random past vs/repack posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#7 IBM 7090 (360s, 370s, apl, etc)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#68 The Melissa Virus or War on Microsoft?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#30 Could CDR-coding be on the way back?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#83 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#31 database (or b-tree) page sizes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#33 database (or b-tree) page sizes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#20 Very CISC Instuctions (Was: why the machine word size ...)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#28 OS Workloads : Interactive etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#45 cp/67 addenda (cross-post warning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#46 cp/67 addenda (cross-post warning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#49 Swapper was Re: History of Login Names
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#50 IBM going after Strobe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#50 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#15 Alpha performance, why?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#21 "Super-Cheap" Supercomputing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#53 Alpha performance, why?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#15 Disk capacity and backup solutions
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 19:10:29 GMT
Lon Stowell writes:
4. Good SNA documentation and test suite were available, but
SNA was a intranetworking, not a good public interconnect
technology. Far more reliable, IMNHO, far more difficult
to hack or dos.
5. The good folks decided that the CCITT standards were too
cheap [full set of '84 was about $400] so they added
several zeros to the price. All of a sudden nobody could
afford to give each working engineer their own copy,
the edu's didn't even bother.
6. Purely my own non-humble opinion, but the TCP and earlier
CCITT standards came from technical committees. The OSI
ones came from politically dominated committees with far
to much input from the land of the clueless...telco groups.
using the OSI model ... one can claim that SNA didn't support
networking at all ... lacking the equivalent of a network layer. It
wasn't until APPN ... and the SNA group nonconcurred with the
announcement of APPN; APPN announcement was held up for six weeks
while the the dispute was escalated and then the APPN announcement
letter was carefully rewritten so that there was no direct connection
between APPN and SNA. Earlier, when my wife had done peer-to-peer
stuff (she had been con'ed into going to pok to be in charge of
loosely-coupled ... aka cluster) ... there was lots of discord with
the SNA crowd. SNA was pretty much a large complex telecommunications
control system, not networking and not peer-to-peer.
note a lot of CCITT was point-to-point copper oriented ... from telco
groups. possibly part of the issue was simple point-to-point copper
wasn't necessarily good grounding from complex heterogeneous networks.
ref:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#7 Why did TCP become popular?
Say circa '84 ... previously terminals, workstations, and PCs
connected to the local network host via some sort of terminal support
and then accessed the "network" via applications on the local network
host. With LANs, workstations, PCs, IP and IP gateway (all coming
together), it was possible to have the PCs and workstations interact
with each other and the local network host with TCP/IP. Installing IP
gateway on the local network host also resulted in the PCs and
workstations being able to access the network directly in the same
manner that they interacting locally. This also resulted in the number
of network hosts at a local site exploding from one to hundreds.
random appn & sna refs:
ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#51 APPC vs TCP/IP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#53 APPC vs TCP/IP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#89 "Database" term ok for plain files?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#54 WHAT IS A MAINFRAME???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#31 3745 and SNI
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#28 Buffer overflow
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#54 Computer Naming Conventions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#43 Beginning of the end for SNA?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#48 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#12 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#48 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#20 Vnet : Unbelievable
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#67 3745 & NCP Withdrawl?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#49 unix
peer-coupled shared data refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#35a Drive letters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#37 What is MVS/ESA?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40 Comparison Cluster vs SMP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availabilty on S/390
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#100 Why won't the AS/400 die? Or, It's 1999 why do I have to learn how to use
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#128 Examples of non-relational databases
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#13 Computer of the century
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#30 OT?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#37 OT?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#73 7090 vs. 7094 etc.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#69 Wheeler and Wheeler
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#71 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#2 Block oriented I/O over IP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#44 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#76 Other oddball IBM System 360's ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#54 Computer Naming Conventions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#6 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#48 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#12 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#45 M$ SMP and old time IBM's LCMP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#68 META: Newsgroup cliques?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#67 unix
some past terminal emulation posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#6 Computer of the century
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#35 VMS vs. Unix (was: Why are Suns so slow?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#13 IBM's mess (was: Re: What the hell is an MSX?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#14 IBM's mess (was: Re: What the hell is an MSX?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#83 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#16 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#35 Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#14 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#43 CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#66 vm marketing (cross post)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#74 Itanium2 power limited?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#19 Vnet : Unbelievable
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#24 computers and stuff
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#29 computers and stuff
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#30 computers and stuff
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#53 10 choices that were critical to the Net's success
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#40 ibm time machine in new york times?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#41 ibm time machine in new york times?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#45 hyperblock drift, was filesystem structure (long warning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#23 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#28 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#33 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#34 diffence between itanium and alpha
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:23:30 GMT
"Skybuck Flying" writes:
Pardon me for asking but why do you keep all these newsgroup
messages stored
? :):):)
I can imagine someone storing a few... but this is a lot !
And most of it is very technical and probably boring to read ?! :)
Maybe you started collecting it when google wasn't invented yet ?
maybe sometime in the 70s ... before newsgroups
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 22:03:15 GMT
out of total website hits it tends to avg around 30 percent
each for the usenet/newsgroup archive
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#archpost
and the ietf rfc index ....
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#internet
and around 20 percent each for the (crypto & standards related)
mailing lists
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#x959
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#aads
and the glossaries
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#glossary
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Do Data Models Need to built on a Mathematical Concept?
Newsgroups: comp.databases.theory
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 22:36:07 GMT
neo55592@hotmail.com (Neo) writes:
Just as in pure set theory, I want the flexibility that the elements
can be anything. But, in the rdb model, that flexibility cannot be
fully realized because the type of values in a domain is restricted
to some hardware dependent type (ie int, long, date, 50 chars,
etc). If I think of a set of arbitrary thing in my mind, I don't
think about their type to decide if they can on cannot be included
in that set. If the things in a set are of different types, I
probably would not be performing operations such as add or average
on them.
as an aside fips193, sql standard
http://www.itl.nist.gov/fipspubs/193-1.htm
... & from above:
SQL is particularly appropriate for the definition and management of
data that is structured into repeated occurrences having common data
structure definitions. SQL provides a high-level query and update
language for set-at-a-time retrieval and update operations, as well as
required database management functions for schema and view definition,
integrity constraints, schema manipulation, and access control. SQL
provides a data manipulation language that is mathematically sound and
based on a first-order predicate calculus. SQL is self-describing in
the sense that all schema information is queryable through a set of
catalog tables called the Information Schema.
... sql from slightly different view:
http://www.it.bond.edu.au/inft320/003/lectures/Relational%20Data/node6.html
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~gurari/course/cis670/cis670Ch9.html
... & just for kicks, a non-rdb, graph/network model
http://www.jfsowa.com/pubs/semnet.htm
for arbritrary occuring information, including possibly anomolous and
non-regular real-world structures.
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Authentication protocol.
Newsgroups: alt.security,comp.lang.java.security
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 00:55:29 GMT
"Al" writes:
I've looked at some authentication protocols and implemented one
with some modification for my application. Just like to know if
there are any loopholes. The aim is to only let registered clients
(not expired and not blacklisted) access the service. The
implementation is in Java. Hope you could have a look and comment on
it.
Phase 1: Setup
1. Trusted applet loaded on the user's machine and presents registration
form.
2. User fills in registration form and submits.
3. Trusted applet creates public/private keypair on client's machine and
store them in a specific keystore for this application in the user's
machine.
4. Public key of the client is then sent over to the server and stored in
database together with start date and end date.
Phase 2: Authentication
1. Trusted applet runs the authentication service, sending the client's
public key to server.
2. Server checks client's public key to see if it is a valid key - not
expired, and not blacklisted.
3. Server creates a random token and hashes it, then sends the hashed
random token to client.
4. Client receives hashed random token and then signs it with private key
and sends it to server.
5. Server receives the signed token and verifies the signature.
6. Client allowed to connect once signature verified.
this is similar to the pk-init certificate-less flavor for kerberos;
public key is registered with in radius database for user
(effectively in lieu of a password).
user contacts server with id, server responds with string that
includes some unique value, client digitally signes a message that
contains the server's unique token and responds, signature is verified
using public key from radius database for that id.
a difference is that instead of using a public key for both the id
lookup and the signature authentication; some other value is used for
the id.
note radius infrastructure includes lots of support for various types
of authorization information associated with id ...
allowed/not-allowed, potentially what systems can connect, what
times connects can be allowed, misc. other authorization attributes.
recent similar thread
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#70 Simple resource protection with public keys
misc. other radius related refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#49 Authentication w/o user ids and passwords
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#65 Storing digital IDs on token for use with Outlook
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#14 OT: Attaining Perfection
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#42 Authentification vs Encryption in a system to system interface
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#47 Public key and the authority problem
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#57 Security in RADIUS (RFC2865)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#59 Security in RADIUS (RFC2865)
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM system 370
Newsgroups: comp.lang.asm370
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:42:32 GMT
"Jonas Olson" writes:
I'm afraid I have to disappoint you because I actually do
program. Even assembler. Still I don't get your point when you say
that the instruction set for the system/370 lives on just because
other languages are translated (I guess we could pick up the term
"compiled") into assembler. What surprised med was that there still
existed a discussion about a platform which I thought was forgotten
(almost) about a long time ago.
basically, majority of the application level (problem state)
instructions from 360 (even precursor to 370), still live on in 390
and current Z machines ... and a lot of people just don't get around
to changing the name every machine generation .... at least in part,
up until 64bit ... majority of changes from one generation to the next
were in the supervisor state (aka kernel/privileged) instructions.
the bible for instructions that the assembler implements is
the principles of operation .... here is the esa/390 pop:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9AR004/CONTENTS?SHELF=#I%2e0
(instruction and machine) compatibility is covered at
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9AR004/1.3?DT=199706131
and comparison with system/370 and 370-xa is at:
DT=1997http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9AR004/F.0?0613131822
along with summary of changes:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9AR004/F.3?SHELF=&DT=19970613131822
while lots of the POP covers kernel & privilege mode operation .... most
of the instructions in chater 7, general instructions:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9AR004/CONTENTS?SHELF=#I%2e0
come right out of 360 (even before 370).
the latest z/architecture (with 64 bit support) POP is at:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9ZR001/CCONTENTS?SHELF=DZ9ZBK01&DN=SA22-7832-01&DT=20020416112421
POPs for the past 30? some years have always had the summary of
changes section. this seems to just have the section on "The ESA/390 base"
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9ZR001/CCONTENTS?SHELF=DZ9ZBK01&DN=SA22-7832-01&DT=20020416112421
I expect that it is still possible to use the current assembler to
correctly assemble some number of 360 era assembler programs
(precursor to 370).
So a lot of people talking about the "370 assemble" (when referencing
the current assembler) probably learned on 370 (or even 360) ... and
nobody has felt strongly enuf about the reference to change the name
of the newsgroup everytime a new generation machine was brought out.
>From a standpoint of nomenclature, at one time the "SLAC-mods" to the
assembler represented a bigger differentiator in assembler function
... than the change from one machine generation to the next.
There are somewhat orthogonal issues ... the features of the assembler
and the machine instructions supported by the assembler. However,
people may make references to the (ibm) 370 assembler ... when they
are referring to the current assembler product.
so the current official name ....
IBM High Level Assembler for MVS & VM & VSE
can be found at:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/ASMR1001/CCONTENTS?DT=19950207185621
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Mainframe Tape Drive Usage Metrics
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 22:45:58 GMT
IBM-MAIN@ISHAM-RESEARCH.COM (Phil Payne) writes:
Yup. Same company offered a light-driven stopwatch that timed
"Input Inhibit" on 3270s - worked very well on the Telex clones.
Recorded how long the light/screen symbol was on for each time and
even (IIRC) produced an average. Cost about $30.
Our users bought two or three and stuck them onto their terminals.
Made our lives hell in SLA compliance meetings.
about the time the 3274/3278 came out we got a FIFO box for the 3277
keyboard ... and some instructions on how to change the resistance
inside the keyboard to affect the repeat delay and the repeat rate.
You unplugged the keyboard from the 3277 head, plugged in very small
fifo box (about the size of a rs232 sexchange plug) and then plugged
the keyboard into the fifo. The fifo handled being able to type when
the system light was on ... so as to avoid getting keyboard lockup
when you happen to be typing at the moment the system might do
something to the screen (the FIFO box was something like $26.99, so
instead of measuring the lockup, it eliminated the lockup).
of course the 3278, et all ... move all such electronics back into the
3274 controller. I kept the 3277 will into the mid-80s.
The other was the 3274 controller internal overhead/delay, made it
almost impossible to achieve subsecond response. The standard reply
was that there are no MVS-related operations that have requirement for
subsecond response.
We could show quarter second response for VM ... combined system plus
controller .... when using 3272/3277 combo .... but could not achieve
any progress trying to improve the 3274 for interactive environments
.... it was purely targeted at MVS customers .... who, while the
might have large numbers of online ... were not considered interactive
and therefor response was not an issue.
measurements from ancient detailed report on 3272/3277 & 3274/327x
comparison:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#19 3270 protocol
and as noted in this old report ... it is only even close for local
attached using identical data stream for both 3272 & 3274 (no advanced
3274 function) .... going to SNA attached just leaves a very large
crater in any interactive response strategy.
The really terrible SNA response was one of the justifications that
STL used when moving a couple hundred people from the IMS group to a
remote bldg ... that they refused to go with SNA supported terminals
... and instead went with local terminals using a HYPERChannel
channel-extender (this was 1981 running something like 300 "local"
327x terminals over 1.5mbit, T1 line).
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:47:10 GMT
Craig Partridge writes:
Yes and no. In 1984 (I believe) the National Academy of Sciences
produced a study saying OSI and TCP/IP were equivalently capable and
as well developed. That was likely true at the time.
but OSI was traditional homogeneous networking stack .... w/o gateways
and internetworking capability. I've constantly claimed that one of
the reasons that internet finally exceeded the internal network in
size (by mid-85) was the introduction of gateway functionality (along
with LANs and proliferation of PCs and workstations on LANs being able
to appear as network hosts with the addition of gateway function to
the traditional site mainframe network host) ... aka an important
reason that the internal network was larger than the arpanet thru the
70s and into mid-80s was that the internal network effectively had
gateway functionality in every node (aka 1/1/83, arpanet was dealing
with the issue of 255 nodes; 6/10/83, the internal network observed
the addition of the 1000th node).
there is also the small caveat that ISO, out-of-which OSI sprung
... had rulings about not considering protocols that didn't conform to
OSI. We ran into this small problem when trying to do high-speed
protocol that interfaced directly to LAN ... and since LANs violated
OSI ... then doing a protocol to a LAN interface also, obviously,
violated OSI, and therefor couldn't be considered by ISO or by an ISO
chartered national body.
Scenarios claiming OSI and TCP/IP were equally capable were, at least,
if they weren't allowed to consider the importance of gateway and
internetworking functionality (totally lacking in OSI) ... which I
believe has since been shown to be of extremely significant
importance.
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 01:30:54 GMT
Mark Crispin writes:
So, discounting the logical host octet, let's look at how much ARPAnet
ended up routing. A 1988 host table shows IMP host numbers up to 11, and
IMP numbers of up to 126, in use. This indicates 11, maybe 12, bits of
addressing. So ARPAnet was able to handle as many as 2047 or possibly
4095 nodes.
Of course, by this time, TCP/IP was well-established, and was routing
quite a bit more.
gateways and internetworking is at least partially orthogonal to 8bit
vis-a-vis 32bit. i believe both internet and the internal network
passed 2000 nodes in '85 ... and the internet ... after the 1/1/83
cut-over, lans, PCs, workstations, gateways, etc .... growing much
more rapidly than the internal network (the internal network was close
to 1000 nodes at the time that arpanet was approx. 255 nodes).
i was also told circa '77 or '78 that the inter-IMP chatter vis-a-vis
packet routing was starting to consume a significant percentage of the
56kbit links.
somebody else in the below reference thread specifically cited IMP
up/down caused heavy inter-IMP configuration chatter ... sufficiently
so it could affect the appearance of IMP up/down, further increasing
heavy inter-IMP chatter.
past threads raising inter-IMP chatter overhead:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#42 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#47 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#60 Bitnet again was: unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#62 ARPAnet again: Bitnet again was: unix
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Authentication protocol.
Newsgroups: alt.security,comp.lang.java.security
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 09:44:26 GMT
Hans Granqvist writes:
In all, this is a decent simple protocol with some
problems. The problems are the usual ones: how to
disallow Man in the Middle attacks. There is no good
way of dong this without invlovling out-of-band
transmission of keys or tokens, or using some PKI.
<PKI certificate redundant, superfluous, stale, static rant>
The public key registration with out-of-band process happens
with or w/o a PKI.
Basically the RA function of a PKI operation has you generating a
public/private key pair, creating a message with some assertion, like
your name, and the public key ... and signing that message, and then
sending it off to the PKI RA function (that is the step done for all
public key registrations, whether it is a PKI RA public key
registration or a non-PKI, RA public key registration).
The RA function then stores the information in some database or
account record, and then uses some out-of-band process to to verify
the assertion. If it is a PKI RA, the PKI RA then generates a
certificate, stores it in the database also, and returns a copy of the
certificate to the requester. The certificate basically contains the
original message (assertion and requestor's public key), but instead
of the original digital signature, it contains the "CA" digital
signature.
So now, in theory, if your registering for some employee account, you
create a message with some assertion, sign it, and attach your TTP CA
certificate. However, having a TTP CA certificate certifying some
bland piece of information, like your name, isn't sufficient, by
itself, to establish you as an employee (aka I can have a perfectly
good TTP CA certificate certifying that I'm John Smith and that
doesn't mean that I'm an employee). So even with a TTP CA certificate,
there still has to be some out-of-band process certifying that I'm the
employee that I'm claiming to be ... aka the TTP CA certificate is
redundant and superfluous since there is still required an
out-of-band process validating being an employee.
So, lets say the RA is the employor. When you join the company, you do
the keygen process and register with the employer's HR operated RA.
HR validates the key, validates the assertions, and stores it in the
HR database. The issue is whether or not HR has to just store the
information in an account record or return a copy of the certificate
to the employee. If the employee was now registering for some online
service, they create a message with some assertion, digitally sign it
and send it off. Does the employee's certificate need to be attached to
it? For any process of importance, the corporate online service would
then make a real-time check with the HR database. If they are making a
real-time check with the HR database, then they can also do a
real-time check of the HR database with the employee's registered
public key. Again, having the employee go around passing out
certificate copies is redundant and superfluous.
So, lets say this is a generic ISP. Your sign up for a generic ISP and
make various assertions (like name, address, credit card number, etc).
The ISP does some out-of-band validation (possibly including a
real-time one dollar auth on the credit card number) and gives
you a password. Now, this could be enhanced with public key and RA
function. Make an SSL connection to the ISP's website, create the
assertion about name, address, credit card number, etc ... adding your
public key and signing the message. The ISP does all of its standard
out-of-band validation and then registers the public key in its
database ... preferrably a RADIUS accessable database. From then on,
all PPP and authenticate webserver accesses use digitally signed
messages ... which can use RADIUS protocol doing real-time retrieval
of the public key and other authorization information from the ISP
database. Again passing out a certificate is redundant and
superfluous.
In effect, a certificate is a stale, static copy of some validated
information that is stored in some sort of database. The purpose of
that certificate is for situations where there is no recourse to the
real-time, online, original information and/or it isn't necessary to
perform any additional (out-of-band) validation operations.
In the case of an employer vis-a-vis a generic TTP CA certificate, the
corporate online service still needs to validate that you are an
employee regardless of what is claimed in some generic certificate,
and possibly still needs to perform real-time checks regarding whether
you still are an employee. Real-time access to a corporate employee
registry (possibly run by HR with real-time updates regarding specific
employee authorizations) makes the employee's passing out copies of
stale, static certificate redundant and superfluous.
</PKI certificate redundant, superfluous, stale, static rant>
other redundant and superfluous rants:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#22 draft-ietf-pkix-warranty-ext-01
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#29 Employee Certificates - Security Issues
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#39 Identification = Payment Transaction?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#41 I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-pkix-sim-00.txt
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#0 OCSP and LDAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#2 OCSP value proposition
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#3 OCSP and LDAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#4 OCSP and LDAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#6 OCSP and LDAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#16 A challenge
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#19 A challenge
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#20 surrogate/agent addenda (long)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm13.htm#25 Certificate Policies (addenda)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#36 "Trusted" CA - Oxymoron?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#40 Why trust root CAs ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#47 Why trust root CAs ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#24 Why trust root CAs ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#67 future trends in asymmetric cryptography
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#8 Server authentication
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#9 Server authentication
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#56 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#58 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#79 Q: ANSI X9.68 certificate format standard
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#3 Invalid certificate on 'security' site.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#7 Invalid certificate on 'security' site.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#35 Can I create my own SSL key?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#77 FREE X.509 Certificates
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#64 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#65 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#68 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#3 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#35 TOPS-10 logins (Was Re: HP-2000F - want to know more about it)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#49 PKI and Relying Parties
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#56 PKI and Relying Parties
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#72 Digital certificate varification
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#16 A new e-commerce security proposal
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#55 Beware, Intel to embed digital certificates in Banias
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#30 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#56 Certificate Authority: Industry vs. Government
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#57 Certificate Authority: Industry vs. Government
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#35 Public Encryption Key
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 13:55:20 GMT
"Skybuck Flying" writes:
I think for most people the internet became popular around
1996, 1997 when the WWW and HTML was created :)
my wife and i were hired as consultants by financial services company
to work with small client/server startup in menlo park that wanted to
do payments ... starting in 1994. two people at the startup
responsible for this thing called a commerce server, we had previously
worked with at oracle (from a previous life when we were running skunk
works and turning out ha/cmp) ... the result is now somewhat referred
to as electronic commerce:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13 SSA
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#asrn2 Assurance, e-commerce, and some x9.59 ... fyi
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#asrn3 Assurance, e-commerce, and some x9.59 ... fyi
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#52 loosely-coupled, sysplex, cluster, supercomputer & electronic commerce
claim can be made that some of this can be traced back to the science
center when "G", "M", & "L" circa late '60s invented GML ... which
begate SGML, which begate HTML, XML, etc. slightly related is the
CMS/TSO bake-off done by CERN circa 1974 ... selecting CMS and getting
to use lots of GML. Something similar went on at CERN's sister site,
SLAC. SLAC also has some claim to be running the oldest, still
operational webserver.
the science center was also responsible (besides GML, SGML) for cp/67,
vm/370, virtual machine technology, the internal networking, lots of
interactive applications, compare and swap instruction and lots of the
early work turning performance turning into things like capacity
planning. misc. science center refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
some old cern cms/tso bakeoff refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#49 any 70's era supercomputers that ran as slow as today's supercompu
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#30 IBM OS Timeline?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#19 3270 protocol
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#67 Coulda, Woulda, Shoudda moments?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#14 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#51 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#64 vm marketing (cross post)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#35 VR vs. Portable Computing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#37 VR vs. Portable Computing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#54 SHARE MVT Project anniversary
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#54 XML, AI, Cyc, psych, and literature
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#53 HASP assembly: What the heck is an MVT ABEND 422?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#69 OT: One for the historians - 360/91
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: UT200 (CDC RJE) Software for TOPS-10?
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 04:42:58 GMT
"Charlie Gibbs" writes:
acronym n. [Acronym for Alphabetic Collocation Reducing Or
Numbing Your Memory.] A memorable word from which a non-
memorable phrase is acrostically generated; a circumlocutory
abbreviation often confused with its antonym, MNEMONIC.
then you have GML which were the first letters of "G" & "M", & "L"
last names ... and needed to come up with some description that
matched there initials ... which begate generalized markup language,
and then SGML, and then the more recent HTML and XML (and a whole crop
of other MLs).
and then CAS nmenomic for compare and swap instruction ... which were
charlie's initials; before it hit the streets the mnemonics became CS
and CDS for compare and swap and compare double and swap.
both courtesy of the cambridge scientific center, 4th
floor, 545 tech. sq.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
monopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:07:07 GMT
mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) writes:
In _The Soul of a New Machine_, Tom West, or somebody
else, calls that Pinball motivation. The reward for doing
it well enough is that you get to do it again.
we were told that the best you can hope for if you are succesful, is
to not get fired and be allowed to do it again ... that was somewhat in
the context of ha/cmp
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Why did TCP become popular ?
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:11:52 GMT
Lon Stowell writes:
The NCSA addons and mosaic for the mac were in use
before microsoft finally figured out how to produce
a passably acceptable tcp stack.
however, they did get around to hiring some really experienced people
and by the time of the Microsoft Developer's conference held at
Moscone jan. of '96 .... it was pretty well in hand ... I had asked
Jim Gray at the conference to track them down for me ... Gray and
Gorden Bell also had a small party that week for the opening of the
microsoft research center that was 4-5 blocks from mascone.
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Authentication protocol.
Newsgroups: alt.security,comp.lang.java.security
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:29:13 GMT
"Hiddle Mamond" writes:
You have quite an enligtening post and replies.
To add one point: Use SSL to secure connection between client
(applet) and server, so to avoid middle man attack.
most (all?) of the CA RA functions ... do use SSL. I also explicitly
mention it in the ISP example:
So, lets say this is a generic ISP. Your sign up for a generic ISP and
make various assertions (like name, address, credit card number, etc).
The ISP does some out-of-band validation (possibly including a
real-time "one dollar auth" on the credit card number) and gives you a
password. Now, this could be enhanced with public key and RA
function. Make an SSL connection to the ISP's website, create the
assertion about name, address, credit card number, etc ... adding your
public key and signing the message. The ISP does all of its standard
out-of-band validation and then registers the public key in its
database ... preferrably a RADIUS accessable database. From then on,
all PPP and authenticate webserver accesses use digitally signed
messages ... which can use RADIUS protocol do real-time retrieval of
the public key and other authorization information from the ISP
database. Again passing out a certificate is redundant and
superfluous.
.....
also with respect to mitm attack ... long thread in another
mailing list:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#1 Who's afraid of Mallory Wolf?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#2 Who's afraid of Mallory Wolf? (addenda)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#3 Armoring websites
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#4 Who's afraid of Mallory Wolf?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#5 Who's afraid of Mallory Wolf?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm14.htm#9 "Marginot Web" (SSL, payments, etc)
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:30:46 GMT
all the news reports regarding skimming seem to be (done for both
credit & debit) various & sundry methods of recording (essentially)
the plaintext ... and then doing things like manufacturing couterfeit
cards. appears to be orders of magnitude simpler than trying to break
the crypto.
try search engine for skimming, and/or card, skimming
misc postings :
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay6.htm#ccfraud2 "out of control credit card fraud"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay9.htm#skim High-tech Thieves Snatch Data From ATMs (including PINs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#40 In Brief: Anti-'Skimming' Guidelines Coming
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay10.htm#3 High-tech Thieves Snatch Data From ATMs (including PINs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay10.htm#41 ATM Scams - Whose Liability Is It, Anyway?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay10.htm#44 Credit Card Skimming Rising In The US
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:36:14 GMT
"contact" writes:
Your note about credit card fraud in Europe was interesting. Does
use of the Euro Card require a PIN entry or is it optional? Is it
always a Smart Card or can it be a just a mag stripe card? I
believe in the USA credit card fraud is much more prevalent than
debit card fraud and that's why using a PIN for all transactions
would lower the fraud cost.
The part about having the PIN entry go into the Smart Card in the
clear is a worry because most Smart Cards here have a mag stripe as
well. It's feared that the PIN for the mag stripe use would be the
same as for the Smart Card potion and that crooks could easily
obtain the PIN when it's used in a Smart Card reader.
... note, slight drift with references to EU finread (aka financial
card reader) standard:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#3dsecure 3D Secure Vulnerabilities? Photo ID's and Payment Infrastructure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm9.htm#carnivore Shades of FV's Nathaniel Borenstein: Carnivore's "Magic Lantern"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#keygen2 Welome to the Internet, here's your private key
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#4 AW: Digital signatures as proof
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#5 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#6 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#23 Proxy PKI. Was: IBM alternative to PKI?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#24 Interests of online banks and their users [was Re: Cryptogram: Palladium Only for DRM]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#57 Q: Internet banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#60 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#61 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#62 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#64 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#25 Net banking, is it safe???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#26 No Trusted Viewer possible?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#0 Are client certificates really secure?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#6 Smart Card vs. Magnetic Strip Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#9 Smart Card vs. Magnetic Strip Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#10 Opinion on smartcard security requested
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#21 Opinion on smartcard security requested
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#46 Security Issues of using Internet Banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#55 Security Issues of using Internet Banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#69 Digital signature
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#38 Convenient and secure eCommerce using POWF
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#13 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#26 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#67 smartcard+fingerprint
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:51:33 GMT
"John E. Hadstate" writes:
It's beginning to sound like the whole system is like a cardboard
box with a steel vault door mounted on it! There are easier ways
into the box than going through the door.
yesterday in a cybersecurity panel discussion, i used the analogy of a
6-foot thick bank vault door sitting in the middle of an open field,
no walls, ceiling, etc, just the door.
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
monopoly
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:44:15 GMT
jmfbahciv writes:
JMF did a lot of prelim just-in-case hooks. How many times do you
see a way to do it "easy" or, if you spend some extra time on a
piece of code could be used for some other stuff that you know will
be asked for but hasn't been "approved". Now, in the -10 world we
had to be careful not to mess around too much; doing anything that
changed documentation had to be handled with kid gloves. Doing
anything that caught the notice of the product manager idiots was to
be avoided at all costs. :-)
there is a corollary ... if you did a lot of stuff ahead of time,
anticipating diffiiculties ... then the management and the rest of the
world started to percieve that it was an easy job ... vis-a-vis some
other project that was always having disasters (i.e. it wasn't that
you were doing a job a hundred times better ... it was that your job
was obviously too easy since you weren't having the constant
disasters).
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: OT What movies have taught us about Computers
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:01:56 GMT
jmfbahciv writes:
They did come from companies who make a living fixing hardware. We
had a damnedable time convincing DEC powers that customers might
really need 7x24 continuous computer service. I recall talking with
a hardware engineer who honestly believed that all the in-house
computer systems were powered down when he left work every night.
He did not see any need to sink money into continuous system
service. So I asked him if he would tolerate a 24 hour electric
service shutdown whenever the power company wanted to take a turbine
on- or off-line. That one actually shut him up and I could see
little used gears spin in his brain.
Note that this was a hardware engineer in a computer manaufacturing
company. Not many of them had any idea what they were building or
designing. They couldn't see further than their prints. And I
found this narrrow view to be very common among hardware types. The
exceptions...sadly, I'm counting them on one hand and we had a lot
of hardware people.
when the early cp/67 time-sharing service bureaus started having
world-wide customers ... the traditional hardware preventive
maintenence schedules started to represent a problem ... i.e. there
was always somebody, somewhere using the system (even 2am-5am sunday
morning).
they tended to already have multiple processors in a clustered
environment to handle the aggregate load ... but, (I think it was
first IDC, by this time they had already moved on to early version of
vm/370) eventually had to implement process migration to handle the
situation ... migrating all the work off of a processor complex and
effectively varying it offline so it could be taken down for
preventive maintenence.
some past 7x24 service bureau discussions:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#9 Checkpointing (was spice on clusters)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#52 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#4 virtualizable 360, was TSS ancient history
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#35 D
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#59 Blinkenlights
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#44 cp/67 (coss-post warning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#34 Computers in Science Fiction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#62 subjective Q. - what's the most secure OS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#64 Hercules and System/390 - do we need it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#27 why does wait state exist?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#32 why does wait state exist?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#73 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#15 CA-RAMIS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#3 Alpha performance, why?
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: application of unique signature
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:43:20 GMT
"John E. Hadstate" writes:
Isn't any signature a statement that the signer is in some way
associated with the thing being signed? You sign a check to affirm
that you authorize the transfer of a certain amount of money to
someone else. You sign a lease to affirm that you have read,
understood, and agreed to the terms in fine print on the back side
of the page. You sign an e-mail message to affirm that you are
somehow associated with it (although that's a little questionable
considering the prevalence of "features" like "Automatically sign
all outgoing mail messages").
Digital signatures are virtually always "signatures by proxy", the
proxy agent being the computer program that generates them. Most
people can't compute or verify a digital signature themselves.
<<< Is it useful? >>>
It depends on whether some third party accepts the signature as
genuine and chooses to act on that belief (disburses money, enforces
the lease, what ever).
there are various uniqueness issues .... does every generation result
in a unique signature ... aka fips186/DSA with the use of random
number as part of the signature generation as opposed to say uniquely
associated with a specific individual.
There is a lot of stuff around non-repudiation that includes did the
person intend to sign what they signed.
a simple example is various personalities in hardware tokens that
generate digital signatures.
Access tokens personalities may have the requirement for a PIN at
power-on for the token to work correctly aka two-factor authentication,
something you have and something you know.
Financial token personalitieis tend to have the requirement for a PIN
for every signature performed ... regardless of whether it is power-on
event or the token has been powered on for several hours and it is the
one hundredth signature. The issue is that the additional requirement
for a human interaction (re-entering the PIN) for every signature,
helps carry with it the sense of human intention. It is still two-factor
authentication, something you have and something you know ... but
there is also the added sense that the human has performed an explicit
physical action for every digital signature (starting to make it a little
more analogous to human, physical signature).
For non-repudiation and intention there are also issues (somewhat
addressed by EU finread standard) related to is what the human
believed they are signing, what got signed (was the signature applied
to what was displayed to the human and read).
lots of discussions regarding finread, intention, & non-repudiation:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm3.htm#cstech4 cardtech/securetech & CA PKI
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#shock revised Shocking Truth about Digital Signatures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#ocrp Online Certificate Revocation Protocol
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#spki2 Simple PKI
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm6.htm#nonreput Sender and receiver non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm6.htm#nonreput2 Sender and receiver non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm9.htm#carnivore Shades of FV's Nathaniel Borenstein: Carnivore's "Magic Lantern"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm9.htm#pkcs12b A PKI Question: PKCS11-> PKCS12
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay6.htm#vouc implementations of "XML Voucher: Generic Voucher Language" ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep0 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep1 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep2 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep3 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep4 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep5 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#nonrep6 non-repudiation, was Re: crypto flaw in secure mail standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay7.htm#3dsecure 3D Secure Vulnerabilities? Photo ID's and Payment Infrastructure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#cfppki15 CFP: PKI research workshop
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#cfppki18 CFP: PKI research workshop
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#paiin PAIIN security glossary & taxonomy
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm10.htm#keygen2 Welome to the Internet, here's your private key
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#4 AW: Digital signatures as proof
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#5 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#6 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#7 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#8 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#9 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#11 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#12 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#13 Words, Books, and Key Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#14 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#15 Meaning of non-repudiation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm11.htm#23 Proxy PKI. Was: IBM alternative to PKI?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#0 maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#5 NEWS: 3D-Secure and Passport
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#12 TOC for world bank e-security paper
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#19 TCPA not virtualizable during ownership change (Re: Overcoming the potential downside of TCPA)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#24 Interests of online banks and their users [was Re: Cryptogram: Palladium Only for DRM]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#30 Employee Certificates - Security Issues
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#37 Legal entities who sign
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#38 Legal entities who sign
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm12.htm#59 e-Government uses "Authority-stamp-signatures"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay10.htm#53 First International Conference On Trust Management
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay10.htm#72 Invisible Ink, E-signatures slow to broadly catch on
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#94 Those who do not learn from history...
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#79 Cryptogram Newsletter is off the wall?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#30 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#34 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#39 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#40 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#41 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#42 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#43 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#44 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#45 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#46 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#47 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#50 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#51 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#52 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#54 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#56 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#57 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#58 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#59 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#60 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#72 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#73 PKI and non-repudiation practicalities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#39 Ancient computer humor - DEC WARS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#11 FREE X.509 Certificates
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#38 distributed authentication
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#57 Q: Internet banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#60 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#61 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#62 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#64 PKI/Digital signature doesn't work
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#51 future of e-commerce
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#25 Net banking, is it safe???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#26 No Trusted Viewer possible?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#7 No Trusted Viewer possible?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#46 Big black helicopters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#0 Are client certificates really secure?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#43 Why is UNIX semi-immune to viral infection?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#6 Smart Card vs. Magnetic Strip Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#9 Smart Card vs. Magnetic Strip Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#10 Opinion on smartcard security requested
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#21 Opinion on smartcard security requested
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#35 Security and e-commerce
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#46 Security Issues of using Internet Banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#55 Security Issues of using Internet Banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#37 Security Issues of using Internet Banking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#69 Digital signature
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#13 Biometric authentication for intranet websites?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#68 Are you really who you say you are?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#67 Does Diffie-Hellman schema belong to Public Key schema family?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#77 Does Diffie-Hellman schema belong to Public Key schema family?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#24 Definition of Non-Repudiation ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#40 Beginner question on Security
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#24 Two questions on HMACs and hashing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#26 Do any architectures use instruction count instead of timer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#28 Two questions on HMACs and hashing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#38 Convenient and secure eCommerce using POWF
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#13 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#16 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#19 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#26 Help! Good protocol for national ID card?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#67 smartcard+fingerprint
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#72 So I tried this //vm.marist.edu stuff on a slow Sat. night,
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#52 Cirtificate Authorities 'CAs', how curruptable are they to
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#19 Message (authentication/integrity); was: Re: CRC-32 collision
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#29 Message (authentication/integrity); was: Re: CRC-32 collision
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#37 unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#25 HELP, Vulnerability in Debit PIN Encryption security, possibly
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Hardware support of "new" instructions
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:22:48 GMT
richgr writes:
ISTR that it wasn't 6 bit ASCII (is there any such code?), but was 6
bit BCDIC. EBCDIC was Extended BCDIC, which extended the 6 bit code
to 8 bits. BCDIC was the character code on the 1401 (1620?).
my first student programming job was re-implemented 1401 MPIO on
360/30 ... 1401 MPIO was handling ur<->tape front-end for 709 (bcdic
6bit, vis-a-vis, 360 8bit ebcdic 360)
my trusty green card .. as bit ops for 7-track, 2400 tape drive. mode
identifiers in the control command were for
set density
set parity on/off
set data converter on/off
set translation on/off
request tie (track in error)
table of actual bits:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#34 9-track tapes (by the armful)
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: OT What movies have taught us about Computers
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:26:21 GMT
Morten Reistad writes:
Most Old Computer shops have been through this transition. Some still
have to struggle with it. Banks are just in the middle of this
transition now. They used to have a 14x5 requirement; things had to
run 7-21 all business days. Now the Internet is giving them a run for
24x7.
One thing we SHOULD keep is the regular maintenence of systems;
where suspect hardware is fixed. This is removed only at our
peril.If you really want 24x7 it will cost you at least a second system.
I still haven't seen a standalone system that has a real chance of
getting to 100%, even if the system itself keeps working.
Sooner or later someone is going to blow the main fuse, release
the halon/sprinkler, make a fire or flood, Or the software is
going to blow up.
IDC started out with datacenter in waltham ... and then added one in
sanfran. process migration within a local cluster (direct access to
the same disks) was much faster since it could be accomplished with
minimal communication over channel-to-channel adapter and most of the
stuff paged to disk (i.e. control tables memory mapped and paged just
like application virtual memory) and then paged back in somewhere
else. process migration between waltham and sanfran was a little
slower since it all went over a 56kbit link.
in the late '70s, when there was the consolidation of the US HONE
centers in palo alto ... there was max'ed out cluster (of SMPs) all
connected to really huge disk farm (supporting all field, sales,
branch office, people in the US ... I think there were approx. 40,000
user ids in the complex). About a year after the local cluster was all
operational ... then it was replicated in Dallas (because of concerns
of natural disasters in cal.) with cluster operation between Palo Alto
and Dallas. Then a third cluster was integrated into the operation in
Boulder.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone
later when we were doing HA/CMP ...
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp
we coined the term disaster survivability & geographic survivability
... as the extension to disaster recovery.
misc. past hot standby & peer-coupled shared data posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#35a Drive letters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#37 What is MVS/ESA?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40 Comparison Cluster vs SMP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availabilty on S/390
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#77 Are mainframes relevant ??
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#92 MVS vs HASP vs JES (was 2821)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#128 Examples of non-relational databases
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#13 Computer of the century
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#45 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#47 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#30 OT?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#54 360 Architecture, Multics, ... was (Re: X86 ultimate CISC? No.)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#69 Wheeler and Wheeler
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#70 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#71 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#44 Where are IBM z390 SPECint2000 results?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#44 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#13 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#14 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#18 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#47 five-nines
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#3 News IBM loses supercomputer crown
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#47 Sysplex Info
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#85 The demise of compaq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#73 Where did text file line ending characters begin?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#45 M$ SMP and old time IBM's LCMP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#14 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#68 META: Newsgroup cliques?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#54 Newbie: Two quesions about mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#37 Calculating expected reliability for designed system
misc. past disaster/geographic survivability posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#23 Fear of Multiprocessing?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#145 Q: S/390 on PowerPC?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#184 Clustering systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm2.htm#availability A different architecture? (was Re: certificate path
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay2.htm#cadis disaster recovery cross-posting
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#27 Could CDR-coding be on the way back?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#33 Where do the filesystem and RAID system belong?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#41 Where do the filesystem and RAID system belong?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#41 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#43 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#46 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#48 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#49 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#13 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#18 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#47 Sysplex Info
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#44 Calculating a Gigalapse
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#39 VAX, M68K complex instructions (was Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#67 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#68 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#4 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#24 CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#15 Large Banking is the only chance for Mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#5 Dumb Question - Hardend Site ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#54 Newbie: Two quesions about mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#38 Calculating expected reliability for designed system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#36 Super Anti War Computers
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM system 370
Newsgroups: comp.lang.asm370
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:44:52 GMT
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Jeff nor Lisa) writes:
While some of today's computing is executed on desktops or mini-type
computers, a great deal of it remains executed on the traditional
IBM mainframe, now sometimes called an "enterprise server". For
one thing, as others pointed out, nothing can compare to the
relability and speed of a network handling an incredible volume
of complex transactions every second. For another, there are
millions of existing lines of code that would cost billions of
dollars to conver to another machine.
that was one of the business case justifications that amdahl cited in
a talk given at MIT 30 years ago for starting amdahl corp ... that
even if IBM walked totally away from 360/370 (as in FS, future
System), there was at least hundred billion invested in existing
360/370 software that would keep amdahl corporation in business for at
least 30 years.
misc. fs posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#futuresys
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IBM system 370
Newsgroups: comp.lang.asm370
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 03:56:32 GMT
a little drift with some 7x24 thread and scheduled maintenance from
a.f.c.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#28 OT What movies have taught us about Computers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#31 OT What movies have taught us about Computers
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: chad... the unknown story...
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:22:53 GMT
Peter G Capek writes:
In the interest of historical accuracy... this story was told to me
in the first person --
i.e., he did it -- by Marvin Minsky, and it took place as he was
leaving 545 Tech Square, the building that housed Project Mac and
the MIT AI Lab.
The guard was perfectly willing to let him take the pack out of the
building, if only he could produce a property pass. Turned out that
Minsky's boss at the time was the head of the University, Wiesner,
and it seemed an inappropriate reason to bother him for that.
Besides, dinner was getting cold. Hence the brilliant ploy.
Oh. The precise words were "Look -- it's empty."
the version related to me was by person that claimed to have done it
at the toronto lab. with 2314 disk pack.
there is some overlap, since the person telling me was on assignment
from canada to the vm/370 group ... which, at the time, was also
housed in 545 tech sq (as well as housing the cambridge science
center).
The cp/67 group originally was a minor split from the science center
on 4th floor of 545 tech. sq. as cp/67 morphed into vm/370, it
absorbed the boston programming center on the 3rd floor. when the
vm/370 group ourgrew the 3rd floor, they moved into the sbc (which had
been sold off to cdc) bldg in burlington mall.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
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Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:37:15 -0600
From: lynn@garlic.com
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.vmesa-l
Subject: UNIX on LINUX on VM/ESA or z/VM
At 21:41 AM 5/11/2003, Alan.Ackerman@bankofamerica.com wrote:
Nice complete summary. A few nits:
There were 3 AIXes: one for RT-PC, one for RS/6000 and one for 390
(AIX/370 and AIX/ESA). They had nothing in common but the name. (Well,
they borrowed ideas, some.)
IBM officially declared AIX/ESA unsupported a while back, with USS on
MVS the replacement product.
Open Extension on VM is a subset of POSIX. It implements far less of
Unix than USS. Porting may be possible, depending on which Unix
services are >used. In particular, some uses of 'fork' work, and
others do not.
There were two unix for the RT ... AIX and AOS. AIX started out as a
AT&T Unix port by the people that had done the PC/IX port. AOS
(different AOS than the code name for vs2/svs) started out as a port
of BSD unix to VM/370 by the palo alto science center that was
retargeted to the RT.
Many of the same Palo Alto people also responsible for the early work
on UCLA's Locus unix ... which became AIX/370 and AIX/PS2 ... aka both
AIX/370 and AIX/PS2 were UCLA Locus base. In some sense, the Locus
work is SAA for unix ... supporting file and process migration and
caching between the mainframe and PCs.
AIX for the RT evolved into AIX for RS/6000. One of the biggest
differences between the AIX/RT and AIX/6000, was that the RT version
was built on top of the VRM (virtual resource manager (a sort of
abstract virtual machine layer, aix ran on top of RT's vrm, aos ran on
the RT's bare metal) ... which was eliminated in the transition to the
6000.
misc. 801/romp/rios references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#801
long unix posting
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#54 Filesystems
random past postings:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#49 IBM RT PC (was Re: What does AT stand for ?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#64 distributed locking patents
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#8 IBM Linux
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#65 "all-out" vs less aggressive designs (was: Re: 36 to 32 bit transition)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#27 OCF, PC/SC and GOP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#68 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#69 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#70 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#44 Options for Delivering Mainframe Reports to Outside Organizat ions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#49 Options for Delivering Mainframe Reports to Outside Organizat ions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#18 Linux IA-64 interrupts [was Re: Itanium benchmarks ...]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#15 OS/360 (was LINUS for S/390)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#1 Anybody remember the wonderful PC/IX operating system?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#20 VM-CMS emulator
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#22 Early AIX including AIX/370
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#17 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#18 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#36 windows XP and HAL: The CP/M way still works in 2002
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#31 2 questions: diag 68 and calling convention
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#65 Bettman Archive in Trouble