List of Archived Posts

2003 Newsgroup Postings (10/03 - 11/13)

public key vs passwd authentication?
public key vs passwd authentication?
public key vs passwd authentication?
public key vs passwd authentication?
Dual Signature
"Personal Computer" Re: Why haven't the email bobmers been shut down
The IBM 5100 and John Titor
3270 terminal keyboard??
The IBM 5100 and John Titor
The invention of the real-time interrupt
Cracking SSL
Dreaming About Redesigning SQL
Dreaming About Redesigning SQL
CPUs with microcode ?
Poor people's OS?
Dreaming About Redesigning SQL
log on windows xp with smartcard
which CPU for educational purposes?
Dreaming About Redesigning SQL
Dreaming About Redesigning SQL
which CPU for educational purposes?
Is it possible to devise a public-key cipher with no flaws?
foundations of relational theory? - some references for the
Are there any authentication algorithms with runtime changeable key length?
Good news for SPARC
Are there any authentication algorithms with runtime changeable
Good news for SPARC
Controversial paper - Good response article on ZDNet
CYLFAULT
Architect Mainframe system - books/guidenance
Is this right? Question about SSL and PKI
hardware vs software security
NSA chooses ECC
Cray to commercialize Red Storm
Macros and base register question
ftp authentication via smartcard
Cray to commercialize Red Storm
Cray to commercialize Red Storm
Cray to commercialize Red Storm
DASD history
Cray to commercialize Red Storm
When nerds were nerds
When nerds were nerds
When nerds were nerds
IEN 45 and TCP checksum offload
hung/zombie users ... long boring, wandering story
What makes a mainframe a mainframe?
What makes a mainframe a mainframe?
What makes a mainframe a mainframe?
Rant (Re: Programmer's unpaid overtime)
Call-gate-like mechanism
Call-gate-like mechanism
Call-gate-like mechanism

public key vs passwd authentication?

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: public key vs passwd authentication?
Newsgroups: comp.security.ssh
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 18:48:41 GMT
Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes:
So what are the advantages of public key over OTP?:

1) digital signature authenticates both the entity as well as the message and
2) digital signature can operate with message originating from the sender w/o real time communcation.


original post:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#50 public key vs passwd authentication?

as an aside, what is possible worst case scenario for OTP?

lets say

• client doesn't keep any state (other than encrypted password)
• server uses the same password addendas for all accounts
• challenge is predictable
• attacker can both evesdrop and impersonate the server

so the attacker

• evesdrops for a while .... collects some number of (possibly server-wide) server-side passphrase addendas

• takes to impersonating the server with challenge count of one and then signals transmission error/drop to the client once the response has been obtained.

Say the clients current count is actually at thousand, and the client doesn't track server-side counts ... the attacker (having obtained the hash for the number one password) now can calculate all of the (remaining, unused) one-time passwords for that account.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

public key vs passwd authentication?

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: public key vs passwd authentication?
Newsgroups: comp.security.ssh
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:11:23 GMT
Michael Sierchio writes:
Here's the thing -- OTPs aren't really a challenge-response mechanism. The challenge is entirely predictable, it's the original salt and the sequence number. Salt is used only to permute the algorithm in the case of dictionary attacks against the passphrase.

There have been claims that the server-side "salt" can also be different/unique with different servers ... allowing a client to use the same client-side secret for all servers. Although, in that case, the client might possibly want to keep a log of all server "salts" ... to guarentee that they are all different.

The vulnerability in the whole OTP scheme with iterative hashes ... is if any client hash value leaks that is for an iteration less than currently being used by a server.

the OTP description in the RFC ... has the client with a secret .... which is combined with something (salt) from the server to form a kind of password. The idea is that the client can use their same secret with lots of different servers ... each server providing unique server salts. The combined client-secret+sever-value is hashed repeatedly, the secret isn't used as a password ... each hash iteration is used as a password, just once.

On initialzation, the server provides the server side salt ... and gets back from the client, the value of the Nth hash. The core of this is that hashes are one-way functions that can't be reversed.

In the RFC, the description is that the server provides a predictable challenge, the server-side salt and the count N-1. The client can have the original client-secret sitting in an encrypted file that is available by decrypting with a client known passphrase.

Getting the server challenge, the client decrypts the file to obtain the client-secret (using a client passphrase), combines the client-secret with the server-side salt, and runs it iteratively thru the hash function N-1 times. The client then returns the N-1th iterative hash value as the (unique) response. The server gets the response, runs the hash function one more time and compares it with the Nth-iterative hash previously recorded.

If HASH(client response) == recorded hash .... then the server accepts the client as valid. The server then updates the recorded hash value, with the n-1 hash value and saves the client's current iterative value as n-1.

The threat scenario on OTP is to impersonate the server and get the client to cough up the first iterative hash value (or any iterative hash value that is lower in sequence than that already being used between the client and server).

While the original value is dependent on the combination of the client-side secret and the server-side value .... each OTP is only actually dependent on the immediately preceeding hash value (as demonstrated by the mechanism that the server uses to verify the response). Given that the attacker is able to obtain any earlier hash value in the sequence ... it never needs to find out the original client-side secret.

The attack is to impersonate the server and serve up a predictable challenge to the client with a count of one and the server-side value (obtained from previous evesdropping). If a server is using the same server-side value for all clients ... then it only needs to obtain that value once from a single evesdropping ... and be able to attack all of that server's clients thru server impersonation ... in each case spoofing a challenge with a (hash interation) count of one.

As in the previous post:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#0 public key vs passwd authentication
• client doesn't keep any state (other than encrypted client-side secret)
• server might use the same server-side salt for all accounts
• challenge is predictable (hash iteration count & server-side salt)
• attacker can both evesdrop and impersonate the server


if the server uses different/unique server-side value for each client, then the attacker will have to evesdrop at least one transaction for each client .... otherwise it only has to evesdrop a single client transaction to get enuf information to impersonate the server for all that server's clients.

The server impersonation attack is to send the client a challenge with the server-side value and the hash iteration count of one. Once it has the client's response for hash-iteration-one .... it can impersonate the client and provide a valid client response for any valid server challenge involving a hash iteration count greater than one.

If the client isn't keeping any state .... other than the originally encrypted client-secret ... then it may never realize that it has been attacked and spoofed into giving up the first hash iteration value (or any hash iteration value less than currently being used by the valid server).

The RFC described OTP such that the client only has to keep the original client-secret ... and an OTP infrastructure where the same client-secret can be used with an arbritrary number of different servers w/o divulging information.

However, if the client isn't keeping any state information, a questionable server can attack another server (if it has evesdropped and obtain that server's salt). Instead of sending to the client, its server-salt and the current count ... it sends the client a different server's salt and a count of one. It gets back the first iteration count for the server it is attacking and then signals the client a transmission error and repeats the challenge/response with its own salt/count. You might even imagine a black market in (stolen) first iteration hash values.

The attack is the same whether the client is using the same client-secret or different client-secrets for all servers .... since the attack is not dependent on the attacker ever finding out the client-secret; just the first iteration hash value (or any hash iteration value, less than the current iteration value used by the server).

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

public key vs passwd authentication?

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: public key vs passwd authentication?
Newsgroups: comp.security.ssh
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:51:09 GMT
Michael Sierchio writes:
Always a good idea to know whom you're talking to before giving privileged information.

The original post:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#50 public key vs passwd authentication?

was in response on the side topic of a major problem with the shared-secret password scheme is the the requirement that the client has to have a unique shared-secret for every different security domain (bank, home, employeer, etc) .... otherwise information could leak allowing one organization to possibly compromise a different organization.

The assertion was that OTP allowed a client to only have to remember a single client-side secret .... with the implication that the same client-side secret could be used in an OTP paradigm and not allow leakage vulnerabilities between one organization and another organization (which in the shared-secret paradigm mandates a unique shared-secret password for each different security domain).

In theory, the server-side/organizational salt provided to the client, when combined with the client's secret/passphrase (whether it is a two level scheme with encrypted file decrypted by passphrase or directly used) then creates a series of OTP values unique to that client/server combination.

So the first part is to highlight that OTP is vulnerable to server impersonation ... where somebody knowing a specific server's value/salt can obtain the first iteration hash value from the client.

The next, is that if the client has no recorded state about each challenge/response event ... then one security domain can "attack" another security domain ... by using a challenge formulated to impersonate a server in another security domain .... getting the client to leak the first iteration hash.

The original side-thread was whether or not OTP helped in the multiple security domain environment .... alleviating the existing sever problem where human isn't equipped to remember unique shared-secret for every unique security domain; preventing cross-domain authentication information leakage ... enabling one security domain to attack a different security domain.

So the response(s):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#50 public key vs passwd authentication?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#0 public key vs passwd authentication?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#1 public key vs passwd authentication?

outlined a vulnerability and exploit based on impersonating a server and obtaining a first iteration hash value.

so the client can take precautions that it is only talking to some valid server. however, within the original posting context of cross security domain leakage of authentication information (requiring unique shared-secrets for every security domain in the shared-secret paradigm), can one server impersonate another server as part of a cross domain exploit for obtaining leaked authentication information (the context of the original post)? So then the question is does OTP have any client-side countermeasures and/or awareness that it even occured.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

public key vs passwd authentication?

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: public key vs passwd authentication?
Newsgroups: comp.security.ssh
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 16:30:08 GMT
... everything i read claimed that OTP was designed as countermeasure against active evesdropping (of shared-secret passwords).

... everything i read claimed that OTP "challenge" was at least to address eliminating the client having to keep state information (didn't have to remember a current server's iternation value ... which could get out of sync ... or a server-side value/salt).

... the assertion in the original post implied that the client-passphrase plus server-side value/salt as the basis for the hash interations .... could be used to address cross security domain authentication information leakage; enabling the same client-side passphrase to be used with all servers.

so the question is ... given that there is no client-side state (getting everything predictably from the server) and OTP is going to be used as a solution for cross security domain authentication information leakage .... is there an attack/exploit where a valid server can impersonate a server in another security domain, obtain the first iteration hash value ... and the client not be aware that it happened.

The scenario initially made the claim about anybody being able to impersonate a server enabling the first iteration hash value exploit. A possible countermeasure is for the client to only execute OTP protocol when it knows it is talking to a valid server.

However, the original scenario concerned cross security domain authentication information leakage .... in which case the attack may be from a valid sever. The question is then can any valid server attack the client to obtain authentication information for a different security domain/server (and the attack go undetected).

The assumption is that any server can evesdrop on the traffic for any other server (in order to obtain the predictable information for impersonation).... since theoritically the original purpose of OTP is a countermeasure for evesdropping threat (if somebody chooses to eliminate the possibility of evesdropping, then a claim could be made that the original justification for OTP is also eliminated).

some of the thread pieces:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#49 public key vs passwd authentication?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#50 public key vs passwd authentication?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#51 public key vs passwd authentication?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#52 public key vs passwd authentication?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#55 public key vs passwd authentication?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#0 public key vs passwd authentication?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#1 public key vs passwd authentication?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#2 public key vs passwd authentication?

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Dual Signature

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Dual Signature
Newsgroups: alt.security
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 15:10:15 GMT
andyoz77@yahoo.com (Andy) writes:
Could you please help me to find out:

What is a dual signature? Why is a dual signature required? and How is a dual signature created?


is this homework?

business/corporate checks frequently have something printed on them stating that two (or more) signatures are required when the check amount is above some limit (say $5k).

FSTC when they were defining digitally signed business checks ... and inventing FSML ... financial signature markup language ... which was contributed to W3C and invovled into XML digital signature) ... had to support business check infrastructure of multipe digital signatures.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

"Personal Computer" Re: Why haven't the email bobmers been shut down

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: "Personal Computer" Re: Why haven't the email bobmers been shut down
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 04:10:44 GMT
Peter Flass writes:
Nice thing about Multics shared segments. I don't know how unix DSOs work, but with OS/2 (and presumably windoze) DLLs the entire library is loaded and occupies shared virtual address space (in all processes) even when only one routine is needed. As I understand it, Multics made it easy to load single segments (every routine is, in effect, automatically a separate DLL) and the segment was mapped only for processes actually using it. I do believe that often segments were bound to create collections of routines ofen used together.

I did original cp/67 and then vm/370 shared segment enhancements the same way. The problem on vm/370 was it was limited to 24bit addressing, specifying 64k segments ... gave possible 256 "segments".

standard VM/370 had a system/priviledge definitions for what was shared segments .... privilege user loaded stuff into the appropriate place in their virtual address space ... and issued a privilege savesys command. Any user then could perform a loadsys and the appropriate virtual memory tables would be updated to reflect that they could be sharing the corresponding segments (read/only).

I did a paged map filesystem for CMS ... and put support into CMS to load standard executables off of CMS page mapped areas ... with including the ability to specify arbritrary shared segments.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#mmap

The problem is that the standard 360/370 genre of coding conventions have fixed addresses in their memory imaged formed (they have stuff that is called relocatable adcons .... which are addresses that are swizzeled by the loader when it brings the program off disk into memory (and therefor the virtual memory image of such applications are bound to specific virtaul addresses).

The problem with only 256 possible segments and fixed addressing is an installation could define an arbritrary number of saved systems at arbritrary, but fixed virtual addresses. The administrative problems for installations was when they had users that wanted to use arbritrary combinations of different applications in the same virtual address space. The installation then had to make sure for different combinations of applications, they had unique and non-overlapping addresses. For large installations ... this could quickly lead to various sitatuons that just weren't possible ... and/or they had multiple different definitions for the same application ... that happened to be loaded at different addresses ... and could be used in various combinations simultaneously with specific other applications (it wasn't exactly the same as having every shared segment appear in every virtual address apace ... but the administrative nightmare for managing non-conflicting virtual addresses for large number of applications was pretty bad).

This kind of problem is somewhat mitigated in unix environments where a lot of applications are set up to run in unique/different address spaces ... with coordinated processing via pipes.

In any case, the infrastructure I had developed allowed CMS to load shared images at arbritrary virtual addresses. The issue then was if the same exact shared imaged existed in multiple different virtual address spaces at different virtual addresses ... the application had to be free of the traditional 360/370 fixed address paradigm. I modified some number of applications to be fixed address free ... but it required modifying the application code ... and then could mark it for loading at any available free spot in a virtual address space
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#adcon

however, most of the applications tended to be bound to fixed addresses and so needed to be bound to predetermined address in each virtual address space it existed in.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

The IBM 5100 and John Titor

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: The IBM 5100 and John Titor
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 12:09:32 GMT
cstacy@dtpq.com (Christopher C. Stacy) writes:
I thought the 5100 ran most of the 360 instruction set.

some previous 5100/scamp threads
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#24 A question for you old guys -- IBM 1130 information
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003i.html#84 IBM 5100
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003j.html#0 IBM 5100

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

3270 terminal keyboard??

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: 3270 terminal keyboard??
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 23:54:58 GMT
Dave Daniels writes:
IBM did a Basic interpreter during the 1980s that I saw running under CMS. It emulated scrolling a 3270 screen by redrawing the whole thing. It is obvious that the developers had never considered people using screens on 9600 bps (or slower) lines. I cannot remember what it was called - There was VSBASIC, but that was much earlier. The company I worked for then did not adopt it and I have not seen it since. Still, VSBASIC was all you needed for Star Trek (or 'Crumpet Hunt Game', the somewhat less politically correct version that came about after a lunchtime trip to the pub).

however there was a lot of work on PVM in the very early 80s with simulating 3270 using 3101 block mode (ascii screen with some optional additional bells and whistles) ... typically deployed with 1200 baud modems.

when PCs came along ... and pcterm with upgrade in PVM to keep state about what was in the pcterm buffer. PVM tried to understand if it had transmitted pieces of character strings already and if it might still be in the pcterm buffer .... in which case it had display controls to indicate display specific sequence of characters from the buffer (rather than sending the actual characters).

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

The IBM 5100 and John Titor

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: The IBM 5100 and John Titor
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:32:31 GMT
Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> writes:
Even if the 5100 could somehow be modified to run other System/360 software (which would take a lot more than a few "special tweaks", since as designed the 5100 can only execute the 360 instructions out of ROM), that STILL would not be sufficient to "read all IBM code written before the widespread use of APL and BASIC".

And even if it could do *that*, it would not in any way be particularly helpful in solving the Unix Y2038 problem, which is what John Titor claimed that he needed the IBM 5100 for.


topic drift .... sometime around 80(?) ... SLAC did a "168E" (i think it was called); a bit-slice implementation of 360 instructions sufficient to execute fortran H programs .... supposedly at 370/168 performance. There were installed at collection locations along the accelerator to do preliminary data extraction/reduction.

note that at the 5100 pages
http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/5100/
there are a number of additional references, including:
http://www.svec.org/hof/1994.html#friedl

the following from above:
Paul J. Friedl is known by many people as the Father of the Personal Computer He was the chief architect and inventor of the world.s first personal computer and also developed the predecessor of the modern spreadsheet program in 1973, long before personal computers, as we know them today, were introduced. He christened his computer 'SCAMP' (Special Computer APL Machine Portable), and it became the father of the IBM 5100 and the grandfather of the ubiquitous IBM PC, which was introduced in August 1981, nearly eight years later The original SCAMP is now in the Smithsonian Institute.

Dr. Friedl's 32-year career with the IBM Palo Alto Scientific Center as a senior engineer and manager included pioneering work in industrial process control, laboratory automation, knowledge-based expert systems, distributed computing, and computer conferencing systems. He also authored many technical papers and patent disclosures. He invented the IBM People Sharing Information Network (PSInet) Computer Conferencing System, which is being used by kindergarten through 12th-grade educators throughout the country.

... snip ...

Note that the Palo Alto Science Center also had done APL\CMS and the APL microcode assist for the 370/145. The Cambridge Science Center had initially done CMS\APL by taking APL\360 and adapting it to CMS, large workspaces (i.e. more than 32k) and virtual memory (redo of the garbage collector and storage allocation). APL\CMS was effectively transferred to STL ... where they adapted it to also run on MVS ... calling it APL\SV.

This was a big contention leading to APL\SV. The APL purists had that it was totally free from any operating systems and/or real world influences. When Cambridge first adapted APL\360 for CMS\APL, they also added features allowing APL programs to invoke operating system APIs (doing things like read & write files as well as other operating system functions). There was a strong reaction that this contaminated the purity of APL. The "solution" was APL\SV (apl shared variables) ... where the operating system API capability was encapsulated in something called "shared variables" .... which provided the capability for APL to deal with the exterior world.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

The invention of the real-time interrupt

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: The invention of the real-time interrupt
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:31:02 GMT
Rupert Goodwins writes:
Yes, that's how I intended the question to read -- a non-deterministic physical signal that asynchronously invokes a routine. I've never fully understood why "software interrupts" are so-called, although they have some similarities, and surely they were never called that until hardware interrupts had been invented?

In 360, I/O interrupts and external interrupts not only interrupted the processor but also allowed for the processor state to be changed (typically from non-privilege or problem state to privilege or supervisor state, as part of the interrupt). The (software) supervisor call interrupts were mapped into the same infrastructure ... not that they were asynchronous ... but that they relied on the same architecture/infrastructure for state-change.

The interrupts tended to result in entry into specific location in the supervisor ... and then the supervisor interrupt handler was responsible for saving the state at the time of the interrupt ... and decoding the meaning of the interrupt .... and invoking some process to handle that specific interrupt. Turns out from the supervisor side of interrupt handling ... the semantics were essentially identical whether it was an asynchronous I/O interrupt, asynchronous external interrupt or a supervisor call interrupt. In effect, the processing was identical ... even tho the cause possibly differed by whether it was software/synchronous or external/asynchronous.

One can conjecture that since the processing appeared identical, there was a tendency to refer to the paradigms with similar terminology ... even tho the cause for the interrupts differ.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Cracking SSL

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Cracking SSL
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:57:56 GMT
"Roger Schlafly" writes:
Possibly secure, depending on how it is used. As SSL is commonly used, there are various attacks possible. Eg, most people do not use client certs, so a man-in-the-middle attack is possible.

SSL was originally designed to address the situation is the server that I think I'm talking to ... really the server that I'm talking to ... basically countermeasure for some sort of dns and/or ip-address routing exploit.

basically, the browser has a table of public keys that are trusted by the client to validate public key certificates for servers. the servers basically contain a domain name and a public key.

typically a client browser 1) contacts a server, 2) gets back a server domain name certificate, 3) the browser validates the integrity of the server certificate with the public key from the internal browswer table of trusted public keys and 4) compares the certificate domain name with the domain name in the URL used to contact the server.

client certificates didn't come along until later. I believe that we introduced the requirement for client certificates and mutual authentication before SSL3. This was for the original payment gateway and we wanted not only that the webserver validated the payment gateway server (i.e. in the payment transaction with the payment gateway, the payment gateway has the ssl role of the "server" ... not the webserver) ... and the payment gateway server validate the webserver (the webserver is the client of the payment gateway server).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#asrn2
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#asrn3

the rise of aads
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#aads

was in large part having to do end-to-end due diligence on all business processes related to the original SSL, the uses of SSL, PKIs, certification authorities, etc and realizing that in (nearly) all (at least online) cases .... the certificates were redundant and superfluous duplication of other business operations.

SSL3 with "mutual" authentication (client and server) came along after the payment gateway stuff and the requirement for "client" certificates as part of the operation.

Note that the original idea was that SSL would be used for all of the shopping experience .... from the initial contact of the merchant website, thru all of the shopping experience, all the way thru checkount and providing the credit card number.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subpubkey.html#sslcerts

The problem was that the SSL overhead caused a five-fold decrease in the server shopping capacity ... so eventually SSL was eventually restricted to just the credit card phase for possibly something like 99.99 percent of the SSL uses around the world today.

So from the standpoint of "commonly used" .... the user may typically provide the initial, non-ssl URL for the shopping experience ... but when it comes to the most widely use of SSL ... the user clicks on a button at the shopping website to enter the SSL environment ... and most users pay little or no attention to the URL that the button serves up. A comon exploit is to be at a bogus shopping site (with no SSL) ... and then have a user hit the checkout button to enter the SSL session. The URL that the checkpoint at the bogus shopping site caughs up turns out to be identical to the domain name of the bogus shopping site ... and of course the SSL validation proves that the domain name in the (bogus) URL, in fact matches the domain name in the supplied certificate.

The issue, of course, is that the breadth of MITM protection specified by the technical SSL description ... is significantly less than the breadth of MITM exploits available to people wanting to do fraud. In some ways, it is like saying that SSL specifies the security of the bank vault door ... but washes its hands of any issue regarding bank vault doors being placed in empty fields .... it isn't their fault that the crooks can walk around the door since there are no walls, floors, ceilings, etc.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subintegrity.html#fraud

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Refed: **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Dreaming About Redesigning SQL
Newsgroups: comp.databases.theory,comp.databases,comp.databases.object,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:01:24 GMT
seunosewa@inaira.com (Seun Osewa) writes:
Quote from
http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/sqlr95-Prehisto.html

We knew sort of peripherally that there was some work going on in the provinces, in San Jose. There was this guy Ted Codd who had some kind of strange mathematical notation, but nobody took it very seriously. Ray Boyce was hired at about this time, and we kind of got into this game called the Query Game where we were thinking of ways to express complicated queries. But actually before the Query Game started, I had a conversion experience, and I still remember this. Ted Codd came to visit Yorktown, I think it might have been at this symposium that Irv alluded to. He gave a seminar and a lot of us went to listen to him. This was as I say a revelation for me because Codd had a bunch of queries that were fairly complicated queries and since I'd been studying CODASYL, I could imagine how those queries would have been represented in CODASYL by programs that were five pages long that would navigate through this labyrinth of pointers and stuff. Codd would sort of write them down as one-liners. These would be queries like, "Find the employees who earn more than their managers." [laughter] He just whacked them out and you could sort of read them, and they weren't complicated at all, and I said, "Wow." This was kind of a conversion experience for me, that I understood what the relational thing was about after that.

... some conjecture that SQL was chosen as a TLA (three letter acronym) in competition with QBE (query by example) from YKT:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#44 SQL wildcard origins?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#70 Pismronunciation

i have some memory of QBE presentation in cambridge in the early to mid 70s ... in advance of some amount of the System/R stuff.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Dreaming About Redesigning SQL
Newsgroups: comp.databases.theory,comp.databases,comp.databases.object,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:13:54 GMT
oops; and other query stuff from the same period ... also done on vm/370 and cms ... nomad, ramis, focus
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#15 CA-RAMIS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#17 CA-RAMIS
http://www.decosta.com/Nomad/tales/history.html

and of course, 4th floor, 545 tech. sq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

CPUs with microcode ?

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: CPUs with microcode  ?
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:40:52 GMT
Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> writes:
IBM zSeries, which is the latest descendant of the System/360, System/370, 370/XA, ESA/370, and ESA/390 architectures. AIUI, like the Intel and AMD processors, the z/Series hardware executes many instructions without involvement of microcode. But some of the instructions are rather complex and would be difficult to execute without microcode. (Or a complex state machine, which amounts to the same thing.)

also the whole infrastructure for mainframe LPARS (logical partitions .... basically much of virtual machine supervisor moved into the hardware of the machine). starting with 370/158 there was microcode assists for the virtual machine supervisor ... this expanded significantly with later machines .... then almost with SIE, PR/SM, etc. Then it wasn't that far to move a whole subset of the virtual machine supervisor into the hardware .... providing for structured subset partitioning of the machine as independent ... even if the more functional superset software virtual machine supervisor wasn't even running.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Poor people's OS?

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Poor people's OS?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.security,linux.redhat,comp.os.linux.misc
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:17:17 GMT
Richard Pitt writes:
Commodity hardware has come down in price from several thousands of dollars for a "reasonable" system to several hundreds of dollars for a system about 2 orders of magnitude better - a net change of about 3 orders of magnitude in favour of the consumer (1000% better for those who don't understand magnitudes ;)

minor nit ... "100percent better" is sometimes used to mean double, so does 110percent mean ten percent better?

one order of magnitude (1 with single zero) is ten times or 1000percent, two orders of magnitude is hundred times (1 with two zeros) or 10000percent, three orders of magnitude is thousand times (1 with three zeros) or 100000percent.


magnitude    times        percent
1               10           1000
2              100          10000
3             1000         100000
4            10000        1000000

or percent is "times" with two more zeros.

A question is does it become like the automobile or the telephone; the old stories about telephones and automobiles ... if they were ever to catch on ... every person would have to become a telephone operator or a chauffeur; ... in effect they drastically simplified both, allowing every person to, in fact, operate telephone and/or automobile w/o needing a separate, specially trained person.

there also has been the whole issue of automobile aftermarket products and customized automobiles ... or would most consumers eventually come treat automobiles like appliances.

slight drift .... some conferences have raised the issue regarding the prevailing, most common software was fundamentlly designed for relatively disconnected, desktop environment (say dedicated for stand-alone games) ... dropping it into a high-speed, all-the-time, 7x24, world-wide interconnected environment stresses it in ways that it was never designed to handle. For systems to operate with integrity in a specific paradigm ... it typically needs to have the fundamentals designed/built into from the origin; layering them on afterwards almost always results in significant faults.

There is some analogy with patches .... there was a industry study of a TV ad campaign from the late '70s .... where a particular vendor's copying machine was extremely prone to paper jams. They took out TV ads highlighting the fact that clearing paper jams in their product was much easier than in the competition products. However, the TV ads backfired ... constantly reminding people that the product had paper jams much more frequently than all other copiers. The current patch and virus update operations are somewhat analogous.

misc. discussions to buffer overflows, viruses, explots, vulnerabilities and fraud:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subintegrity.html#fraud

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Dreaming About Redesigning SQL
Newsgroups: comp.databases,comp.databases.theory,comp.databases.object,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:54:11 GMT
pobrien@orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) writes:
I think over time Relational implementations (various flavors of SQL) have lost some of the clear advantages they had over languages like COBOL and systems like CODASYL. In 1974 we didn't have Python, Java, C#, etc. I'm not saying Relational implementations have no advantage over modern languages and alternative database technologies. I simply take issue when Relational advocates make blanket statements about other technologies (OO and ODBMS) that are not true, or were once true but no longer are true.

as per previous post:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#12 Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

see comment about RAMIS from 1969
http://www.decosta.com/Nomad/tales/history.html A Brief History of 4th generation languages

system/r was done on VM/370 .... before that (1969) RAMIS was done on modified version of CP/67 (precursor to VM/370) as per above URL. The modifiedd CP/67 by NCSS was moved to 370 generation machine .... and its subsequent NOMAD was in direct competition with the FOCUS (another RAMIS derivative) at Tymshare ... a modified VM/370 offering running on 370 hardware.

and as previously ... random system/r related stuff
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#systemr

some past references to commercial time-sharing offerings (ncss, idc, tymshare, etc):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#timeshare

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

log on windows xp with smartcard

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: log on windows xp with smartcard
Newsgroups: alt.technology.smartcards
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:20:00 GMT
Daniel James writes:
Eh? Kerberos doesn't use RSA. (Not sure what MS have done to it, but vanilla Kerberos is a DES-only system.)

some are implementing kerberos pk-init internet-draft that specifies public key (rsa and other) .... draft includes specification for certificate-less-based (i.e. account-base) public key implementations. misc. kerberos comments
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subpubkey.html#kerberos

misc. public key, account based discussions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#aads

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

which CPU for educational purposes?

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: which CPU for educational purposes?
Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:14:31 GMT
"Glen Herrmannsfeldt" writes:
Which is why IBM's VM system is so useful. It is much easier to debug when you have the control that VM gives you over debugging from the front panel. Well, in the days when computers actually had front panels, with switches and lights where you could view and change data.

a demo i did a couple times .... somebody would claim that they had secured the system even from me ... I had an outstanding claim that if i was in the room, it was less then five minutes until total control over everything. I would flip a couple bits in a conditional branch instruction, located after the return from the authentication routine. then, they would always say that I cheated because it had nothing to do with password guessing and/or any other sophisticated procedure. took five minutes because i needed to remove any outside connection to the machine .... because flipping the bits was pretty drastic.

a specific incident was one weekend I had time on machine someplace ... and one of the other machines in the machine room contained a copy of the FS documents and specifications ... and they claimed that they had a bunch of security procedures that I wouldn't be able to get around. misc. FS references
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys

(25-30 years ago) I pointed out there were two countermeasures

1) put keylock on the front panel (they eventually moved all of it into service processor ... and added keylocks and password functions to the service processor)

and/or

2) provide support for encrypted filesystems with everybody having their own private key (which just added to the human factors shared-secret overload, although encrypted filesystems are now starting to show up)

recent post with lots of additional topic drift:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#23

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Dreaming About Redesigning SQL
Newsgroups: comp.databases.theory,comp.databases,comp.databases.object,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:10:08 GMT
"Jim Mehl" writes:
No, SQL was chosen because Sequel was already a trademarked name. With regard to QBE, there was a famous comparison test made in Building 28 between Sequel and QBE. The room had a note on the door reading OK Corral. Lynn Wheeler's office was downstairs and perhaps 20 feet away. Anyway there was no decision. But I think history has shown that SQL won out over QBE Jim Mehl
... but it makes a good story ....

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Dreaming About Redesigning SQL
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:31:50 GMT
"Jim Mehl" writes:
Lynn. Are you implying that people on alt.folklore.computers would actually stretch the truth? Perish the thought. <grin>

it wasn't any claim about choosing SQL vis-a-vis sequel ... it was only some contention that in choosing a TLA ... they may have wanted a good TLA like QBE's TLA ... of course s, q, l are the only consonants in sequel ... so maybe that had a little to do with it also?

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

which CPU for educational purposes?

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: which CPU for educational purposes?
Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:04:27 GMT
jmfbahciv writes:
There's a huge difference between system access security and data access security. Once upon a time, these two were the "same" thing because of the way systems and data were isolated (they were in the room). With the advent of cheap PCs, the distinction has to be made. We didn't have to think about the distinction very much waybackwhen because of the hardware setups.

there has been soemwhat long running thread in some other mailing list about What's Your Threat Model ... aka if you don't know what you are securing against .... you might actually miss something (or possibly even fail to accomplish anything). slight part of the thread:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#25 WYTM?

one of the earlier issues is that if you are designing a system that is for purely personal use that isn't connected to anything else ... or at most is connected to a purely local, small, non-hostile collection of similar machines (aka similar to the purely batch system in machine room isolation) .... then the protection mechanisms are going to be totally different than what you would need for a world-wide, possibly all the time connected, somewhat anarchy, even being lugged around in quite public places.

the keylock/password on the front panel functions is only a countermeasure against limited, short term physical attack (aka nobody is looking for several minutes in the machine room). countermeasure for longer duration physical attack just about requires physically securing the actual data ... with one possibility being the encrypted filesystem scenario.

and even more drift, I think it was somebody at perkin-elmer that did a custom, locally loadable disk driver for CMS sometime in the 70s. Originally this was targeted at compression and saving disk space. There were a lot of pundits that believed it would aggravate CPU utilization. A not too surprising result (in retrospect) was that it reduced CPU utilization; the increase in CPU utilization performing the compression/decompression function was more than offset by the reduced physical blocks that had to be transferred ... and therefor the reduced CPU use by the I/O routine. I believe at least one of the encrypting filesystem drivers flowed from this work.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Is it possible to devise a public-key cipher with no flaws?

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Is it possible to devise a public-key cipher with no flaws?
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 15:28:39 GMT
"Panic" writes:
For symmetric ciphers, you generate a totally random key. Hence there is no structure to the key. With PK ciphers (at least like RSA), you generate a key according to a formula. This of course being nessesary for the key-pair to form a encryption/decryption-key-pair. So for PK ciphers, the key has structure. And therefor you cant expect key lengths of PK ciphers to approach the length of symmetric ciphers, no matter how you try.

so a test of structure with PK ciphers ... what is the difference in the attacks between knowing the public key and never knowing either key.

A PK business objective of using asymmetric ciphers is allowing one of the keys to be known ... but if none of the keying material is ever divulged (as in symmetric key), does that change the attacks? ... aka compare asymmetric cryptography and symmetric key cryptography on level playing field using same ground rules regarding no keying material being divulged; then compare the difference between PK business process use of asymmetric cryptography that allows some of the keying material to be divulged (against scenario where no keying material is divulged).

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

foundations of relational theory? - some references for the

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: foundations of relational theory? - some references for the
 truly starving
Newsgroups: comp.databases.theory,comp.databases.pick,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:43:57 GMT
"Paul Vernon" writes:

http://www-3.ibm.com/software/data/ims/
http://www-3.ibm.com/software/data/ims/presentations/two/imsoverview/index.htm

a.. "More than ninety-five percent of the Fortune 1000 companies use IMS. IMS serves 200 million end users, managing over 15 billion Gigabytes of production data and processing over 50 billion transactions every day. IMS still owns the high-volume on-line transaction and database management environment. IMS customers have been driving their own growth with IMS - over 79 million transactions were handled by one customer in a single day on a single sysplex system, 30 Million Trans/Day on a single CEC. 7 million Transactions/ hour and 120 million transactions/day were handled by another customer. IMS in-house testing has reached over 4000 transactions/sec across TCP/IP to a single IMS on a single machine (G6). And we have reached 11,246 trans/sec (nearly 1 Billion trans/day) with IMS Data/Queued Sharing on a 2-CPC Sysplex.. One large customer has also indicated they have reached over 3000 days without an outage and another over 2000 days and still going strong. "


several years ago .... in a meeting with one of the large financial backbone systems ... they attributed their one hundred percent availability for the previous six years (aka no outages, either scheduled or unscheduled):

• ims hotstandby
automated operator

and since then, I believe they have continued to have one hundred percent availability.

random past ims hot-standby posts: ttp://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#35a Drive letters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#37 What is MVS/ESA?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40 Comparison Cluster vs SMP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availabilty on S/390
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#77 Are mainframes relevant ??
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#92 MVS vs HASP vs JES (was 2821)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#128 Examples of non-relational databases
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#12 Amdahl Exits Mainframe Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#54 360 Architecture, Multics, ... was (Re: X86 ultimate CISC? No.)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#44 Where are IBM z390 SPECint2000 results?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#13 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#14 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#18 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#47 five-nines
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#3 News IBM loses supercomputer crown
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#47 Sysplex Info
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#85 The demise of compaq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#68 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#73 Where did text file line ending characters begin?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#14 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#68 META: Newsgroup cliques?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#35 HASP:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#37 Calculating expected reliability for designed system
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#56 The figures of merit that make mainframes worth the price
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003l.html#11 how long does (or did) it take to boot a timesharing system?

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Are there any authentication algorithms with runtime changeable key length?

Refed: **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Are there any authentication algorithms with runtime changeable key length?
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:07:18 GMT
josb4@hotmail.com (jos sulistyo) writes:
Sorry for repeating my own posting. I sent the previous one before finishing the title! At any rate, I am repeating it with the title completed. I hope this is not a major breach of any netiquette. At any case, I am looking for an authentication algorithm, preferably a public-key type, with the following property: it could, on the run, change the key length by using only a substring of the original key. Is there such an algorithm? (Even nicer would be if there are even downloadable source codes!) More specifically, let us start with, say, a single long, say, 512-bit key (or 128, or 40, or whatever). I think there are many algorithm with such fixed key sizes. Now, however, what I am looking for is one in which (for instance, through some server <--> client negotiation), the authentication could be performed using just the first 32 bits (or the middle 32 bits, or whatever) out of the 512 bits in the original key, if the server (and maybe the client) agree that somehow they could use a shorther key. Probably another client which is considered ok with an even shorter key may authenticate using just 20 bits of they key.

in general many of the EC/DSA implementations can do adaption to approved key sizes (aka FIPS186-2, X9.62, etc)

a side issue .... independent of the implementation issues .... (given an algorithm that supported key substrings) .... is that longer key sizes are chosen because they are harder to determine. Using substrings of the long key for shorter versions of the same value .... exposes the longer key to piecewise discovery (i.e. you are making pieces of the long key vulnerable to discovery ... negating reason for having a longer key ... it is much easier to guess two 40 bit values than it is to guess a single 80 bit value).

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Good news for SPARC

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Good news for SPARC
Newsgroups: comp.unix.solaris,comp.sys.sun.hardware,comp.sys.intel,comp.arch
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:36:20 GMT
"Yousuf Khan" writes:
Fujitsu, for example. Fuji makes their Sparc64 processors, which compete against Sun's UltraSparc processors. Both are based on the same standard instruction set.

But as the original posting said, it looks like Fuji and Sun are pooling their resources together now to combine their processors.


i thot it almost looked like that 10 years ago ... when there was some amdahl/sun announcement ... but it wasn't clear whatever happened to that (or was it purely a marketing thing)?

i vaque recollection of 30 some years ago at some auditorium at MIT where Gene Amdahl was describing what was to be his new company and there was some amount of heckling from the audience about it effectively being a fujitsu front.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Are there any authentication algorithms with runtime changeable

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Are there any authentication algorithms with runtime changeable
 key length?
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:00:48 GMT
josb4@hotmail.com (jos sulistyo) writes:
Dear Ann / Lynn: Thanks a bunch for the response. At any case, I have several more questions. So, EC/DSA could use only substrings of the original keys? Are those substrings treated as separate keys (hence the algorithms actually support multiple keys), or are they truly single-key algorithms which could support the option of just using part of the key? Also, considering the risk of piecewise discovery, if we need multiple-length keys, is it better to use multiple keys (with varying length) somehow, instead of trying to find an algorithm which allows the use of only part of the key? Or, is it safer (more secure) to avoid the entire multiple key length idea altogether? Thanks again for all responses! Cheers, Jos

i didn't say that ec/dsa could use substrings ... i said that fips186-2, x9.62 specify multiple key lengths. asymmetric key algorithms tend to have very complex relationship between the values of the two keys aka they aren't bit strings but two numbers that tend to be very large.

What would sort of be implied is that two extremely large numbers can be converted to bit-strings ... then abritrary subset of the bitstrings can be taken and then converted back to two (smaller) numerical values ... and that those two entirely new & arbritrary numerical values would also have some complex relationship?

Lets say I have a 100 digit number (A) that has a simple mathematical relationship to another number (B) ... lets say A is seven times B. The question is can I taken an arbritrary subset of digits from A and B ... where all subsets of A will always be seven times all subsets of B (for all possible A & B subsets and all possible As that are seven times some B)?

and what I was implying was that if you had need for different key lengths ... then you needed different keys (and some implementations require it in any case).

Lets say you have a ISO 14443 card with a chip that does EC/DSA digital signature authentication in a transit application. ISO 14443 is a standard for proximity cards where the chip doesn't actually have physical contacts for power but draws its power from RF energy in the air when in the vacinity of a 14443 reader (power-source). A transit application tends to have time constraints (i.e. avoid long lines at turnstyles in metro stations). Longer keys tend to require larger power-time profile than shorter keys (in contact configuration there is some trade-off possible between power and time ... i.e. more power to drive more circuits that would perform move complex operations faster).

so there is a somewhat general principle about security proporitional to risk ... a little topic drift:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#61

which could imply that stronger security because of higher risk might require longer keys (and/or other measures).

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Good news for SPARC

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Good news for SPARC
Newsgroups: comp.unix.solaris,comp.sys.sun.hardware,comp.sys.intel,comp.arch
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:27:18 GMT
Alex Johnson writes:
*shock* IBM consented to use SPARC to design PPC?! Sheesh. When I was in RTP designing the PPC440 core everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, was Power-based. All the workstations and batch queues were RS64 and Power2/3. At first I was miserable at finding out they were dumping an old workstation on my desk that ran at a measley 67MHz (POWER 2) after having a 300MHz Sun Ultra 10 Creator in gradschool (I had the best machine in my school and the oldest machine at IBM). Let me tell you, that crappy old machine cranked out hspice results as fast as the Ultra 10. And through loadleveler I had access to 300MHz POWER 3's. You couldn't even find a Windows machine to use the required Lotus Notes application...you had to use WTS.

Just for comparison (I was so impressed): Sun Microsystems Ultra 10 300MHz 12.1 SPECfp95 (mine in gradschool) IBM Corporation POWER 2 67MHz 10.2 SPECfp95 (mine at IBM) IBM Corporation POWER 3 30-40 SPECfp95 (typical new machine in our dept)


i believe in a transition to COTS tools .... quite a few things (that didn't already run on SUN) were ported to SUN in conjunction with some activity or another with one of the tool venders. At the time, SUN was workhorse of design industry and that was what most of the tools ran on (and what engineers were familiar with). It wasn't until power had been around for awhile ... you got to see tools showing up on aix.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

Controversial paper - Good response article on ZDNet

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Controversial paper - Good response article on ZDNet
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:43:35 GMT
"George Ou" writes:
I'm sorry to say, but I think you're dreaming here.

Numeric advantage means nothing. In Gulf War I, the Iraqi tanks out numbered ours 4 to 1, yet we didn't have a single casualty in our tank crews. We only had a hand full of tanks disabled, while nearly every Iraqi tank was wiped out and a few ran off with their tales tucked between their legs. It would not have mattered if the Iraqi tanks out numbered our Abrams 20 to 1, we would have wiped them out with minimal casualty and with no help from the air.

Last time I checked, the citizens don't own tanks.


a little drift & counter example ... for that unpleasentness in europe, tiger had something between 5:1 to 10:1 kp over sherman ... but there were ten times the number of shermans. supposedly there was an explicit decision to go the cannon fodder route ... which won but it periodicly had a downside impact on crew morale.

misc. past tiger/sherman posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#120 atomic History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#85 V-Man's Patton Quote (LONG) (Pronafity)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#29 Review of Steve McConnell's AFTER THE GOLD RUSH
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#30 Review of Steve McConnell's AFTER THE GOLD RUSH
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#3 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#10 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#11 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#16 mainframe question

supposedly there was a quote from cheney with regard to going into gulf war II that the big problem was that Boyd had died in '97.

lots of boyd references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html#boyd2
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html#boyd

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

CYLFAULT

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: CYLFAULT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:09:51 GMT
john.mckown@ibm-main.uiciinsctr.com (McKown, John) writes:
I cannot be sure, but that may refer to a really ancient thing called the 3850 Mass Storage System (I think that's the name). This was a combination of DASD and Tape that looked like a 3350 - sort of. The majority of the data would be sitting on a tape. Portions of the data would be on the physical DASD. When I/O was done to the box, the "controller" would see if the track was on DASD. If it was, the I/O would be directed to that physical track. If it was not, then the controller would find a "free" track on DASD, look up where the data was on tape, mount the tape (with a robot mounter), and read the data onto the physical DASD. If the physical DASD were "full", it would need to "page out" a physical track onto tape first. Normally it worked on a track level. But if you specified "CYLFAULT" (Cylinder Fault), it would know to stage the entire cylinder that the track was a part of.

This is conceptually like virtual storage. I.e. page faults, backend storage of inactive data, etc. It was a funny box and not really very popular. We had the STK equivalent at Braniff Airways back in the late 1970's, early 1980's. I hated the stinking thing. Tapes broken, the "x-y" motor which drove the robot tape loader would become uncalibrated and not be able to select tapes. This caused a "mount" message on the console and the operator would need to find the physical tape (small things like a "fat" hotdog) and shove it in the tape drive. I wouldn't have gone into this, but it is Friday.


looked like 3330 ... on 3330s; there was a later enhancement that looked like 3330s on 3350 drives. the smallest staging unit was something like 7 (or 10?) cylinders that was "paged out/in".

some pictures:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/mss.html

misc. past 3850 posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#66 commodity storage servers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#54 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#63 MVS History (all parts)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#55 Storage Virtualization
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#84 Questions on IBM Model 1630
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#3 PLX
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#7 Disk drives as commodities. Was Re: Yamhill
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#15 Disk drives as commodities. Was Re: Yamhill
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#18 Card Columns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#21 Card Columns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#29 360/370 disk drives

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

Architect Mainframe system - books/guidenance

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Architect Mainframe system - books/guidenance
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:50:54 GMT
thinkers_corner@ibm-main.hotmail.com (Thinkers Corner) writes:
Hello IBM-Mainers,

I have a bit of a situation. I am applying for a Architect job posting. With resume, I am to provide a step-step process list on how would Architect a Mainframe system and list the references for my knowledge.

I was wondering if IBM or other companies have a (free) pulication on how to design/build/Architect a mainframe system.

They are now a very, very, very, very lean shop and do not have the techical knowledge. The current is very back level of maintenance and will not meet the drop date of OS 2.10, with 10 lpars, 8 cpus, CA-1, RACF, DB2, IMS, (HSM that half works) 7/24 (due to medical processing of records) and is kludge of many systems put together over 25 years from many buyouts.

I would like to make a fresh start of the platform and then port each system over such as DB2, IMS, CICS, ...etc. I have build many application systems and connected them but I never had formal training on Best of Breed practices on how to design one for scratch.

This plan must be put together in 3 months or less...

My best guess from the top of my head is to install

CPU number for 10 lpar with 8 cpus, * 1.25 --> try to reduce this to 8 lpars
Z/OS 1.4 or higher ( so it has parallex Sysplex)
Linux,
VTS,
SAN ( 25 Terabytes)
Hot backup site (Channel extender ?)
DB2
IMS
CICS,
SAS
UCC7 or ..
RACF/TSS


minor digression, this sounds like they need somebody to configure a mainframe system.

padegs used to own the 360/370 "redbook" ... i.e. the architecture book for the 360/370/etc ... it was done in CMS script for a long time with conditionals for the subset that was printed as the principle of operations publication (the full architecture redbook had loads of stuff that didn't show up in the PoP)
http://izgudrojumi.lza.lv/eng/izgudrotaji/PadegsA.asp

at about the same time that ricky baum was hired into POK to be responsible for tightly-coupled (multiprocessor) architecture, my wife was hired to be responsible for loosely-coupled (aka cluster, sysplex, etc by any other name) architecture. She invented the peer-coupled shared data architecture (eventually used in IMS hot-standby and much later sysplex; we like to say she was only five years old at the time).

However, there was big problem in those days .... if the word "communication" showed up any place (even communication between processors) ... the VTAM team would claim ownership/responsibility. Fundamentally, VTAM was a terminal control program (one might consider that the TLA SNA was quite a bit of aggrandizement since 1) it wasn't a system, 2) it wasn't a network, and 3) it wasn't an architecture).

random multiprocessor topic drift:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#smp

random cluster topic drift:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Is this right? Question about SSL and PKI

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Is this right?  Question about SSL and PKI...
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:05:24 GMT
Ohaya <ohaya@NO_SPAM.cox.net> writes:
1) We work with a CA (let's call them "CA-Commercial") that will be issuing CLIENT certificates.

2) We can get that CA-Commercial's root certificate (most of them let you just download them), so I can install CA-Commercial's root certificate on my server.

3) I can run, say, MS Certificate server (so, I'm "CA-Inhouse"), on an in-house machine, and create a server certificate, and install that in my web server (e.g., IIS).

CA-Inhouse doesn't issue client certs, we only use it to issue one server certificate, just for our server.

From my testing, since we have CA-Commercial's root certificate on our server, our server will include CA-Commercial in the CertificateRequest part of the SSL handshake, and then the browser on the client-side will send its CA-Commercial-issued client cert to our server (recall, our server only has a server cert issued by CA-Inhouse).

What I was surprised about, in the above scenario, was that the client authentication succeeded, even though we didn't have a CA-Commercial-issued server certificate installed on our server.


nominally certificates are for trust propagation (i.e. you have no knowledge of who you are contacting ... but you trust somebody else and they issue certificates that supposedly you can trust).

In the case of "loading" a certificate into a table ... you are bypassing the trust propagation gorp ... and loading the CA's public key (from the certificate) into a table of trusted public keys. Many products with SSL support typically ship with some number of trusted (CA) public keys already preloaded into their trusted public key table. The majority of the products will accept any certificate that can be authenticated with some public key in their table of trusted public keys (whether it was a preloaded trusted public key or a public key you specifically loaded).

So for the client browser to authenticate the server's certificate ... it must have the public key of the CA signing the server certificate (in its trusted public key table) ... or some CA public key from a trust hierarchy (the CA that signs your server certificate ... instead of having a self-signed certificate loaded into all the browsers, may have a CA certificate signed by some other CA ... which in turn has its public key loaded into the client browswers). So for the client browswers to authenticate your server .... either 1) the CA certificate for your MS certificate server (CA-Inhouse) is self-signed and has been loaded into all the client browser public key tables or 2) the CA certificate for your MS certificate server (CA-Inhouse) is signed by some other CA which has a public key loaded into the client browser trusted public key tables.

Similarly for the server to authenticate the client certificates ... it must have the public key of the CA signing the client certificates some how (pre)loaded into its table of trusted public keys (or the public key signing some CA-certificate in the client certificate trust hierarchy). One purely hypotethical scenario is that the MS certificate server (CA-Inhouse) has a CA server certificate that is not self-signed ... but possibly signed by microsoft ... and microsoft's CA certificate's public key is in the server's table of trusted public keys. Furthermore it is possible such a microsoft CA certificate is also not self-signed ... but is signed by some CA-commercial operation, who's public key is also loaded into the server's table of trusted public keys. Some such CA-commercial can also have a common trust root with the entity that is signing the client certificates.

The implication is that the server will accept as correctly authenticated any and all client certificates that have been signed by some validly recognized certifcate authority aka the server doesn't care what clients are connecting ... just so long as they have somebody's valid certificate. This may or may not be what you are really interested in. The client process for a server certificate is that the person types in a URL and gets back a SSL server certificate and checks to see if the domain name typed in corresponds with the domain name in the certificate.

One possibility from your description is that the server isn't checking to see if the person being authenticated isq actually a specific trusted person ... but is just checking to see if it is any random entity with any random valid certificate.

The authentication scenario ... say with RADIUS used by nearly all ISPs in the world for internet connectivity ... or a web server that has its client authentication stub to interface to RADIUS is that the connecting entity claims to be somebody ... which then RADIUS checks to see if that somebody is in the authentication table. The connecting entity then authenticates with regard to the claimed somebody with some authentication material. Then RADIUS typically provides the authorization information with regard to the authenticated entity. Most implementations in the world have a password (shared-secret) registered with RADIUS as authentication information. However, it is possible to enhance RADIUS to register a public key in place of a password. The client then performs a digital signature operation for authentication part of RADIUS ... and the server does a (certificate-less) digital signature authentication using the public key registered for the claimed entity.

There is a big different between any client in the world that just happens to have a valid certificate being allowed access .... and a client being able to proove that they are a specificly claimed entity with known access rights.

a little drift with authentication, SSL, PKI, WYTM, MITM, etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#4 Is cryptography where security took the wrong branch?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#7 Is cryptography where security took the wrong branch?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#8 Is cryptography where security took the wrong branch?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#9 Is cryptography where security took the wrong branch?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#10 Is cryptography where security took the wrong branch?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#11 Resolving an identifier into a meaning
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#14 Resolving an identifier into a meaning
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#25 WYTM?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#26 SSL, client certs, and MITM (was WYTM?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#27 SSL, client certs, and MITM (was WYTM?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#28 SSL, client certs, and MITM (was WYTM?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm15.htm#29 SSL, client certs, and MITM (was WYTM?)

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

hardware vs software security

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: hardware vs software security
Newsgroups: alt.computer.security
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:58:56 GMT
Leythos writes:
As MANY people have said, a hardware firewall device is a specialized device build just for one purpose - to act as a firewall. Once you gain experience with the devices available, you come to 'trust' their abilities (or you quit using the ones you don't trust) and their firmware. It's kind of like deciding to use a box end wrench on a nut or to use a multi-purpose tool on a nut - with the wrench you know that it will do exactly one job quite well, with the multi-tool there are many things that it can do that have nothing to do with the job at hand and those options can screw you in many cases.

there is hardly anything that is pure hardware these days. the biggest difference between hardware and software firewalls tend to be that the hardware firewalls are nominally dedicated appliances with "embedded" system that tends not to allow anything to run but the specific configured feature (i.e. somewhat less likely that roque software gets loaded and executed which might compromise the feature/function of the firewall).

There are still some common issues like configurability. it used to be common (going back nearly 10 years) that there was some marked human factors difference in ease of configuring across different products.

For at least one of the products, it was a common and frequent failure because of the extreme complexity for filter specification that resulted in the inverse action of what was expected i.e. specifically permitting things that were expected to be not allowed. There has sometimes been some human factors studies about failing gracefully ... but this was so complex and was prone to failing in the worst possible way (doing the exact opposite of what was intended).

While hardware appliances might be less susceptible to roque software ... there might be some slight tendency for their ease-of-use & ease-of-configuration to be worse than general purpose software possibly aggravating configuration related mistakes.

As a result there has been some tendency to offload configuration related activities for hardware appliances to more general purpose platforms ... which then makes them software vulnerable to roque software with regardd to configuration operations. The other avenue is to eliminate as much of the configuration flexibility as possible.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

NSA chooses ECC

Refed: **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: NSA chooses ECC
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 02:40:53 GMT
"Roger Schlafly" writes:
A pretty silly assertion. The US govt had already endorsed DSA, Diffie-Hellman, and RSA. Obviously with NSA backing.

fips186-2, ec/dsa, x9.62 ... and the approved curves (see multiple references on following page)
http://csrc.nist.gov/cryptval/dss.htm

both RSA and ec/dsa specifications are taken from X9 standards.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Cray to commercialize Red Storm

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Cray to commercialize Red Storm
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:09:26 GMT
nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) writes:
Unfortunately, I cannot provide references, but the last is VERY different from the situation that we found in the 1970s. The reason is pretty clearly that most mainframe systems supported streaming sequential I/O as primary, whereas the Unix model implements it as a way of using cached direct access I/O.

one of the changes that started to appear by the late 70s was the over abundance of memory.

A related impact this had was in managing multi-tasking levels and the associated virtual pages in a virtual memory environment.

During the late '60s and much of the '70s ... only very highly recently used tended to remain in real storage. Very high speed streaming paging devices were used to quickly move pages into and out of memory.

By the late 70s two things were starting to happen:

1) cpus were getting faster, much faster than the paging device technology was getting faster (by factor of between 5-10)
2) significant increase in available memory in common configurations

because of #2, virtual page resident lifetimes became much longer ... even for relatively lightly used virtual pages. it was a good thing because the paging device technology wasn't keeping up with demand to move pages in/out of real storage.

in some sense during the '60s and '70s, i/o capacity was being used to compensate for real storage bottleneck. by the late '70s, the bottleneck was shifting from memory to i/o ... and you started to see the use of real storage to compensate for the emerging I/O bottleneck. This was somewhat assisted by the use of cpu caches .... much larger, less expensive memory technology could be used as processors got faster (i.e. large storage memory technology speed didn't have to tract processor speed).

there are still some fundamental filesystem trade-off issues for things that might have high re-use probability and benefit from being cached ... vis-a-vis things that have little or no probability of being re-used. A single cache/copy filesystem paradigm can benefit high probability re-use data ... but degrades (compared to direct transfer) for low probability re-use data.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Macros and base register question

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Macros and base register question
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:34:45 GMT
vxp@ibm-main.sympatico.ca (Vic Petrone) writes:
Hello,

Does anyone know if there is an assembler macro instruction that will return the base register number of a given field name (ordinary symbol)?

Thanks, Vic


there were at least one set of macros done off the h-assembler slac-mods in the 70s ... which used a macro for generating the using statement ... and you could query what registers were currently being "using". However, that didn't directly get you to a specific field.

In the early '70s, I had done a program (written in pli) that tried to do a detailed analysis of assembler program from the listing output ... it tracked register use in generated instructions and (tried to do) correlated registers generate for addressing with the fields, recognize possibly dead code, detailed flow analysis, recognize if/then/else structures .... and tried to generate equivalent high-level pseudo code.

One of the issues ... w/o implementing a full assembler ... just analysing the listing file didn't identify what structure a particular field was part of (although the generated code in the listing file did show which register was being used for addressability).

I also adopted it to work with the tss/360/370 assembler. The listing outputs were similar but the tss/360 assembler added the csect/dsect id as prefix to the storage displacement field i.e. in the hex code ... instead of just giving the storage displacement that corresponded to a variable field .... it would give the csect/dsect id of the structure that the variable was part of. Then just go to the table of csects/dsects and get the name of each structure that corresponded to the displacement id-identifier.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

ftp authentication via smartcard

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: ftp authentication via smartcard
Newsgroups: alt.technology.smartcards
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:05:52 GMT
"red" writes:
Anybody have any experience with this? I'm considering writing my own AUTH mechanism for handling authentication and would like to conform to any existing protocols that may exist beyond GSSAPI. Googling didn't return anything concrete -- are there no such protocols considered to be "standard"?

look at whole genre of gss-api/kerberos stuff on multiple platforms... also look at pc/sc (windows platforms and others) for interface between smartcards and authentication infrastructure.

kerberos related stuff, start at
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

and under RFCs listed by select Term (term->RFC#)

it is possible to select "GSS" in the Acronym fastpath:

generic security service (GSS)
see also network services , security
3645 2853 2744 2743 2623 2479 2478 2203 2078 2025 1964 1961 1509 1508

it is also possible to scroll down to "Kerberos"

kerberos
see also authentication , security
3244 3129 2942 2712 2623 1964 1510 1411

clicking on a RFC number brings up the RFC summary in the lower frame ... clicking on the ".txt=nnnn" in the RFC summary retrieves that actual RFC.

misc. other kerberos references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subpubkey.html#kerberos

you can try search engine on "PC/SC" and "kerberos"; one such reference that comes up is
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/security/topics/smrtcard/smrtcdcb/sec1/smartc03.asp

... another search engine hit:
http://www.citi.umich.edu/u/honey/talks/mcard-99-march/tsld027.htm

you might find the muscle website of interest:
http://www.linuxnet.com/

also try looking at ssh support for smartcards (and sftp). search engine for "ssh" and "smartcard" ... one such search hit:
http://www.ssh.com/products/tectia/client/specifications.html

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Cray to commercialize Red Storm

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Cray to commercialize Red Storm
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 00:00:39 GMT
"Bill Todd" writes:
I'm afraid that I can't find any distortion of the historical record in the statement which you quote above, merely an assertion that if TCP had been designed differently it would be - different. Plus an implication that this different design would have been superior to the existing one, though of course that's far more subject to debate.

in the late '80s, there was quite a bit of work on some of this related to XTP ... which had quite a bit of its support from SGI ... and some of the engineers that worked on pipelined graphics processing. one of the issues was forcing the checksum from the header to the trailer ... since if you were using pipeline for calculating the checksum ... the header would be long gone by the time the checksum had been calculated. some URLs from search engine on xpress transport protocol:
http://www.ca.sandia.gov/xtp/xtp.html
http://www.ca.sandia.gov/xtp/biblio.html

an offshoot of the SGI/XTP standardization work was a company called protocol engines that designed a chip that did both XTP and TCP protocol acceleration. a couple misc. refs from search engine:
http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/context/21683/0
http://www.mentat.com/xtp/xtpdata.html
http://www.prz.tu-berlin.de/docs/html/prot/protocols/collaboration.html

one of the other design objectives was to be able to go directly between application address space and the protocol chip with no buffer copies (but possibly page fixing).

one of the issues was that an attempt was made to push it as "HSP" (high speed protocol) in ANSI/iso x3s3.3. However, it basically went directly from the transport interface to the LAN MAC interface. iso (and ansi) had a dictate that nothing could be standardized that violated the OSI model. Since HSP/XTP bypassed the traditional level 3/4 interface ... it violated OSI ... it also violated OSI by talking to LAN MAC interface (the problem being that LAN MAC sits somewhere in the middle of OSI level 3 ... and so anything that interfaces to MAC interface by definition violates the OSI model).

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Cray to commercialize Red Storm

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Cray to commercialize Red Storm
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:56:06 GMT
jonathan@Pescadero.DSG.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan Stone) writes:
[XTP]

And there was a ... let's say, an _influential_ body of opinion within the networking community, to the that by the time XTP had expanded to the point where it attempted to negotiate endian-ness (and endian-dependent checksums? I forget) between transport endpoints, that XTP had effectively failed as a lightweight, hardware-friendly transport protocol. YMMV, I'm sure Rob Warnock's will.

The PEI documents on XTP v4 were hard to find for awhile after PEI folded, but I think Mentat has the 4.0b spec available for free download.


yes ... it reminds me somewhat of smartcards ... if you believe you have the one and true answer ... but people aren't flocking to it ... then add more features to make it more attractive (rather than KISS) ... since it is obviously only SMOP ... or maybe SMOE. however, the issue of feature creep is a drift in different direction from the drift about the problems that they were originally trying to address.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Cray to commercialize Red Storm

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Cray to commercialize Red Storm
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:12:35 GMT
rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:
Just to flesh out the history a bit: Greg Chesson at SGI had been working on & promoting XTP for a number of years, and had been advocating building hardware (ASIC) support for XTP (and protocol acceleration generally). On the surface that sounded reasonable, since just as the "Geometry Engine" had been SGI's key to high-performance 3-D graphics, it was thought that some sort of "Protocol Engine" might do the same thing for high-performance networking.

and there was the XTP Technical Advisory Board that companies could buy into for some modest tens of thousands per annum. I was rep from one such company to the XTP/TAB for a couple years. I have possibly two foot stack of paper somewhere in the basement from that period.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

DASD history

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 08:57:38 -0700
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.vmesa-l
Subject: DASD history
on Tue, 4 Nov 2003 13:58:21 -0700 wrote: >Does any one know of a web site that has the history of IBM mainframes disk >drives (and reference information)?

some amount of the GPD (adstar, err, whatever) website material disappeared about the time san jose became hitachi.

some misc. web. pages still around:
http://members.optushome.com.au/intaretro/2321DCD.htm
http://www.i-t-s.com/corporate/disk_drive_history.html
http://www.logicsmith.com/hdhistory.html
http://www.sdisw.com/dasd_capacity.html
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/2311.html
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9907/08/1971.idg/
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/datacell.html
http://mhhe.com/cit/uit3e/pages/chap6/profile6.html

past postings attempting to gather code-names:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#53 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#57 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#63 MVS History (all parts)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#31 index searching
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#3 PLX
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#7 Disk drives as commodities. Was Re: Yamhill

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Cray to commercialize Red Storm

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Cray to commercialize Red Storm
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 20:13:04 GMT
jonathan@Pescadero.DSG.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan Stone) writes:
VMTP had a separate checksum for each 512-byte chunk of data sent, with bitmasks in the header (which i beleive were covered by a separate checksum, as you say) to indicate which 512-byte blocks of a VMTP transaction (rpc) should be retransmitted. I thought the checksums were in a header, but its been awhile.

VMTP ... published as rfc1045

from my rfc index:
1045 E
VMTP: Versatile Message Transaction Protocol: Protocol specification, Cheriton D., 1988/02/01 (123pp) (.txt=264928) (VMTP)


Not so much that I remember VMTP number ... but it is one off from
1044 S
Internet Protocol on Network System's HYPERchannel: Protocol specification, Hardwick K., Lekashman J., 1988/02/01 (43pp) (.txt=100836) (STD-45) (IP-HC)


which I had done a product implementation for. The base product was getting about 44kbytes/sec thruput pretty much consuming a 3090 processor. The rfc1044 changes testing between 4341 and Cray (at Cray Research) was getting 4341 channel media speed (mbyte/sec) using extremely modest amount of 4341 (1mip) processor.

the rfc index entries can be found at
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
specific summary entries
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcidx3.htm#1044
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcidx3.htm#1045

select the ".txt=nnn" field retrieves the actual RFC.

any way other bits & pieces from long ago XTP/TAB meeting:

note that standard tcp requires minimum seven packet exchange

vmtp reduced that to minimum five packet exchange

xtp reduced it to a minimum three packet exchange

... not so much of an issue for large transfers .... but makes a difference if you have a reliable protocol being used for short transactions (as HTTP originally used TCP).

misc. past posts mentioning doing 1044 support:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#1044

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

When nerds were nerds

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: When nerds were nerds
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 14:30:33 GMT
"Kingbarry2000" writes:
In those days a hanging chad really meant something ! I started out on wiring 402 accounting machines. They had accumulators and everything, as well as a bar hit printer. Love those card sorters.

student keypunch room had 407 that was used mostly for doing 80x80 printouts of card programs. students that spent too much time in that room ... eventually learned to reprogram the plug board.

i got a student summer job programming. the univ. had a 709 with a 1401 for UR<->tape front-end to the 709. That spring that they got a 360/30 somewhat as part of getting some 360 experience in preparation for getting 360/67 for running tss/360.

the 1401 had a self-loading binary program that "MPIO" written on the card deck ... and handled the UR<->tape frontend task for 709. My student job was to replicate the function on 360/30. I was giving 360 principle of operations and various SRLs for 2400 tape, 1403 printer, 2540 reader/punch ... I got to invent multi-tasker, interrupt handlers, memory allocation, device drivers, etc.

Nominally, the computing center shutdown from 8am sat. until 8am monday morning (not only during the summer session, but during standard school year also). I was given the key for the machine room and allowed to work from 8am sat. until 8am monday with the whole machine to myself.

One of the first things I learned was at the 8am turn-over on sat. I would clean everything ... including taking the 2540 reader/punch apart ... empty the chad bin, clean the bruches, etc ... and then put everything back together again.

The 360/67 eventually arrived replacing the 709 ... however it was quite tramatic. TSS/360 wasn't ready yet ... so they ran os/360. Student fortran jobs had taken a couple seconds (at most each) on the tape<->tape under the 709 ibsys monitor. on release 7(?) ... a fortran student job was taking nearly hundred times longer elapsed time; effectively unit record speed ... plus really slow os/360 fortgclg three step job.

My access to the machine room continued into the school year where I got to play with os/360. Pulling a 48hr shift from 8am sat. to 8am monday and then doing monday classes was little bit of challenge (regularly going 60hrs with nothing but maybe 2-3 15 minute catnaps).

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

When nerds were nerds

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: When nerds were nerds
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:54:33 GMT
jmfbahciv writes:
That's a nice way to start a work stint.

Did you have an interpreter, too? (I can't think of its name.) Ours was grossly neglected; I used it occasionionally but didn't like it at all.


when I first started in the summer .... i just would start using the equipment ... but after several weeks, I quickly learned that it was better to start out by first taking stuff apart and cleaning everything and putting it back together.

the student keypunch room ... had 407, sorter (don't remember the number), and an interpreter (also don't remember the number). I have some vaque recollection about the interpreter could be cabled to something else ... possibly directly to the 407. The interpreter characters were too large to print one character per column ... to interpret 80 col. card it needed two rows ... possibly 60(?) chars on the top row and 20 chars on the 2nd row.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

When nerds were nerds

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: When nerds were nerds
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:58:38 GMT
jmfbahciv writes:
I don't know how you did it. I couldn't have at any age.

somewhat less sleep but easier than farm work .... i remember as a kid during the summer ... sun coming up before 4am and not really getting dark until after nine. you could pretty much plow from 4am to 9pm. have supper around 10 or 11pm, a little sleep, a quick breakfast and you are ready to go again.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

IEN 45 and TCP checksum offload

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: IEN 45 and TCP checksum offload
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 21:51:18 GMT
jbennett@umunhum.stanford.edu (James Edward Bennett) writes:
The word "frontend" in the first sentence refers to this kind of configuration, where the frontend is a separate processor. He also discusses how to restore the end-to-end property in this type of configuration, by sending the message back to the frontend, and having it recheck the CRC.

remember arpanet predated tcp/ip. arpanet had IMPs (front end processors) that handled a homogeneous networking environment. It wasn't until you see IP being slipped in ... in place of the IMPs ... and the great cut-over to IP, 1/1/83. Big part of things prior to 1/1/83 was the HOST/IMP interface.

some disucssion of preparation for the conversion:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#72 Difference between NCP and TCP/IP protocols
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#73 Difference between NCP and TCP/IP protocols

lots of other random past HOST, IMP, &/or NCP postings:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#37b Internet and/or ARPANET?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#39 Internet and/or ARPANET?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#44 Internet and/or ARPANET?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#67 Difference between NCP and TCP/IP protocols
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#74 Difference between NCP and TCP/IP protocols
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#4 "Mainframe" Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#54 NCP Help (re (D)ARPANET)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#67 Is Al Gore The Father of the Internet?^
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#81 36-bit MIME types, PDP-10 FTP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#4 what makes a cpu fast
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#53 Pre ARPAnet email?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#23 more old RFCs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#34 Processor Modes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#45 Processor Modes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#48 Author seeks help - net in 1981
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#2 Author seeks help - net in 1981
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#87 A new forum is up! Q: what means nntp
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#32 Buffer overflow
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#56 Computer Naming Conventions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#58 ibm vnet : Computer Naming Conventions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#6 medium term future of the human race
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#15 RFC Online Project
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#39 Why Use *-* ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#35 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#71 Coulda, Woulda, Shoudda moments?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#5 Coulda, Woulda, Shoudda moments?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#22 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#48 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#19 Vnet : Unbelievable
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#42 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#46 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#47 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#13 COMTEN- IBM networking boxes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#59 unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#60 Bitnet again was: unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#62 ARPAnet again: Bitnet again was: unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#18 Multiple layers of virtual address translation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#17 Why did TCP become popular ?

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

hung/zombie users ... long boring, wandering story

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 13:41:20 -0700
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.vmesa-l
Subject: hung/zombie users ... long boring, wandering story
At the science center
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
... charlie was working on multiprocessing & fine grain SMP locking (multiprocessing support at the time tended to have a single global kernel/supervisor lock that the processor would spin on when interrupt routine was entered). One of the well known results was the compare&swap instruction (CAS are charlie's initials and one of the requirements for compare&swap was a mnemonic that were his initials ... which was later corrupted when the actual instruction was expanded to CS and CDS).

As part of the work on fine grain locking and multiprocessing support ... charlie had to restructure some of the kernel facilities ... one such was the serialization function.

Earlier as an undergraduate ... i had done all this performance work, pathlength stuff, dynamic adaptive scheduling, fair share, page replacement algorithm, page i/o rewrite, etc... but also had done something called pageable kernel ... where i created a dummy/system user with a dummy virtual address space that was mapped to the kernel. The kernel was carefully built so routines that were to be part of the pageable kernel area .... were carefully broken into no larger than 4k and no module crossed a physical 4k boundary ... and all of the pageable routines were located at the end of the kernel. At boot/ipl ... startup would unpin all the kernel storage above a certain real address ... and allow it to page in/out. This code never shipped in cp/67 product.

However, as part of charlie's rewrite of the cp/67 serialization function ... he also cleaned up some number of zombie process situations. When getting rid of a process ... the procedure had been if there was any ongoing asynchronous activity (evidenced by some control block), the force of the process would be delayed until the activity finished (so there was no dangling activity/references left around after the process was totally gone ... which would typically crash the kernel). Charlie rewrote all that ... so that all sorts of asynchronous activity was re-assigned to the "system" user ... various things patched up ... the process was gone ... and any hanging activity would be associated with the system process which never goes away. The side effect of all this work (starting out to restructure the kernel serialization process for multiprocessing) eliminated lots of system crashes and most known instances of zombie/hung processes.

Along the way .. i started keeping up all the mp modifications for the routines that i was heavily working with & modifying (paging, scheduling, dispatching, etc). Unrelated to MP stuff, I also did restructure of cms and cp to add support for paged mapped filesystem ... and some restructing of shared memory across processes ... a package of stuff I write a report on called Virtual Memory Management.

In the mean time ... the development group goes off and starts work on VM/370 .... which retains much of the existing CMS structure ... but significantly redesigns and rewrites much of the CP kernel. In that process ... almost all of the scheduling and resource management stuff (some of which had already shipped in CP/67) I did was dropped.

Eventually, the science center replaces the aging 360/67 multiprocessor with a uniprocessor 370/155 and we start porting lots of the stuff dropped in the cp/67->vm/370 rewrite to the vm/370 kernel. Much of this was accomplished by the early release 2 vm/370 time-frame ... and besides running at the science center was being installed at a number of internal locations. One major installation were the HONE centers (supported all the field, branch, sales, marketing, etc people around the world)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#timeshare

HONE applications were heavily APL based ... but periodically required some performance assist from applications written in Fortran. At that time, the only way to get shared pages/segments was via the "IPL" command and definitions sembled in the SNT kernel routine. APL was extremely large amount of code & workspaces ... that needed to be mapped into shared memory for efficiency. However the IPL requirement made it extremely difficult to transition from an IPL'ed CMS+APL infrastructure to a CMS+fortran infrastructure (and back). Part of the release two "VMM" changes was the page mapped file system, additional CMS routines restructured to reside in shared pages, support for allowing shared pages to be defined as part of loading an executable from a page mapped file system. This allowed HONE to easily transition back and forth between APL and Fortran applications in a shared segment environment (as easily as a non-shared environment).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#mmap
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#adcon

Along the way, there was extensive performance profiling work going on at the science center (somewhat the inception of capacity planning) as well as extensive performance testing and benchmarking. As part of the performance profiling, testing, benchmarking, etc an automated benchmarking procedure was developed. This also required the creation of something called automated operator. A script of benchmarks is defined which includes 1) specific workload, 2) specific kernel build, 3) specific parameter settings, 4) reboot between benchmarks, 5) automated restart and execution. The creation of the automated operator concept was essential to being able to set up 48hr run of benchmarks over the weekend and allowed it to effectively run unattended.

The automated operator and a small subset of the VMM work (called discontiguous shared segments) was picked up by the development group and released in VM/370 release 3.

Also during this period I was working with Endicott on microcode enhancements for virgil/tully ... which eventually was released as ECPS on the 370 138 and 148.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#21 370 ECPS VM microcode assist
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#27 370 ECPS VM microcode assist
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#28 370 ECPS VM microcode assist

At the same time, I was working on a 5-way SMP project code named VAMPS, that involved microcode 370 processors. For this design ... I was using most of my performance enhancement from CP/67 days ... which retained their restructuring for SMP operations. I was also dropping large amounts of the dispatcher, scheduler, paging subsystem, and interrupt handling into microcode. It was sort of like a cross between an advanced ECPS ... plus somewhat akin to (later) intel 432 (except much of multiprocessing support was in microcode rather than silicon). All the processors could run virtual processes and the multiprocessed microcode ... if the multiprocessed microcode could not continue, it would queue a high level service request (interrupt) for the kernel ... and then search for some other work to do. In this design, only one processor could be executing the software CP kernel at a time. This was somewhat akin to the prevalent kernel spin-lock implementations ... with the following difference:

  1. close to 90 percent of former kernel pathlength was now in parallel multiprocessing microcode (used some of the ECPS work and extended it).
  2. when the non-SMP, serialized kernel was required ... a service request interrupt would be queued for the kernel and the processor would go off and do some other work (if available) ... rather than spinning.
VAMPS was eventually killed and not shipped as a product. However, there was interest in releasing standard VM/370 SMP support. Somebody had done a prototype SMP support with the traditional kernel spin-lock paradigm. However it could be easily demonstrated that the kernel spin-lock had huge inefficiencies ... while I contended that the VAMPS design could be adopted to a software only implementation at very little additional development cost (compared to the single kernel spin-lock implementation) and obtain nearly optimal SMP thruput for large percentage of existing workloads.

So in parallel with this ... I was asked to release a Resource Manager product (lots of stuff I had done as undergraduate and some of which had been previously released in CP/67):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#45 VM/370 Resource Manager
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#fairshare
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#wsclock

In preparation for the Research Manager there are something like 2000 benhcmarks defined with an extremely broad range of resources, system parameters, and workloads. In preparation for that, there were some serious stress test workloads defined and run (one scenario so overloaded the paging system that the average service time to handle single page request was taking one second elapsed time, when running at 600 page i/o per second). These workloads turned out were guarenteed to cause vm/370 to fail. So now, a little reset ... and go back and resurrect Charlie's CP/67 restructuring design for MP serialization support in a fine-grain locking implementation. None of the code actually applied ... but the general principle applied ... rewrite the serialization routine to go thru all the forms of asynchronous kernel and control block activity ... reset them and/or re-assign to the system process (while this didn't ship in cp/67 ... it was picked up as part of the vm/370 kernel rewrite for pageable kernel routines). Eventually we got to the point where we could no longer create vm/370 failures (which previously could be reliably created every time with the stress test benchmarks) ... and as a side effect, all hung/zombies went away.

We then start a series of 2000 (automated) benchmarks ... the first 1000 or so were predetermined. There was an APL analytical/statistical model of VM performance ... which was in part calibrated at the same time we were calibrating the implementation with the first 1000 or so benchmarks. The APL code was then set up so it had the summary results of all benchmarks to date ... and control over all possible benchmark parameters (workload, system configuration & resources, performance turning parameters, etc) and was programmed to make sure there was statistical coverage of workload & operational envelope ... and then search for workload/operational points that might be anomalies and/or the system couldn't handle correctly. In all, 2000 benchmarks were run in this series as part of preparing the Resource Manager for product release:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#bench

So the Resource Manager released as the first IBM "SCP" charged for product (prior to that application code was being licensed ... but there hand't yet been charge for licensed "SCP" code, I get the privilege of working with business people for six months establishing framework for SCP licensing and charging).

The official, SMP, multiprocessing support is ramping up somewhat in parallel with finishing off the Resource Manager for release. I take a version of the code to-date and integrate it and rewrite sections against VM/370 release 3 ... and install it for production operation at major internal HONE centers. As it is getting nearer to releasing the standard code as part of Release 4 VM/370 ... a problem appears.

The framework for SCP license/charging has basic hardware support is still "free" ... but everything else can be charged for. The Resource Manager is already released as licensed/charged for product. The software adaption of the VAMPS implementation (aka numerous low-level kernel functions parallelized, but low-useage, majority of kernel still behind a single kernel lock ... which I coin a term and call a bounce lock).

To simulate the VAMPS microcode interrupt implementation ... the parallelized low-level software code may attempt to obtain the kernel lock ... but if it fails ... instead of spinning it queues an extremely lightweight service request against the kernel lock ... and goes off and try and find other work to do.

In any case ... this implementation is dependent on a lot of the (multiprocessor sensitized) code I carried forward from CP/67 and is now part of the Resource Manager. For release 4, they eventually decide to take approximately 80 percent of the code that had been in the Resource Manager and move it into the base product (in order to have free SMP hardware support w/o a prerequisite on charged-for, licensed software). There continues to be release 4 Resource Manager that is 1/5th the code of the release 3 Resource Manager (however the price doesn't change).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#smp

A side-effect is that all the serialization, system failure fixup, and hung/zombie fixups are incorporated into the base system. Ok, the tale is close to done ... so far converge of fine-grain locking code and Resource Manager benchmarking for the initial round of eliminating all possible zombies. misc problem determination references ... including zombie diagnostics:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#dumprx

By this time, I'm hacking around the disk engineering lab (bldg. 14) and the disk product test lab (bldg. 15). They have all these test cells (each test cell is heavy steel wire mesh cage with heavy duty combo padlock, each inside a secure machine room, inside a secure bldg, inside a fenced plant site). They have a problem that they are testing hardware that generates lots & lots of errors and even errors that violate all ground rules of machine operation. As a result they have to schedule stand-alone machine time, one testcell at a time.

An example is mean-time-between-failure of operating a single test cell connected to a machine running MVS is 15 minutes (before MVS hangs or fails and requires reboot). So I take on the challenge of redoing I/O subsytem so that multiple testcells can be operated simultaneously while the rest of the machine is used for standard services. It takes awhile ... but eventually the system is running on all processors in bldg. 14 and bldg. 15. This closes a number of additional holes where misbehaving hardware can result in system crashes and/or zombies.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#disk

About this time, a PTF is released against the standard system. Apparently somebody has diagnosed some customer system failure as a serialization problem and puts a fix into mainline dispatcher code to delay processing given certain state combinations.

All of a sudden zombies start re-appearing.

For local systems, I make sure that fix is not applied ... and try and find out what raised the reason for this particular fix/PTF to be generated in the first place.

Some side effects of having all the testcell work going on under operating system

1) labs tend to get early processors ... they get one of the first engineering 3033s ... to verify 3033 with disks. the disk division has been doing a lot of air bearing simulation work in preparation for 3380 floating heads. Most of these runs on being done on the research 195 in bldg. 28. However, there is a pretty long queue constantly waiting for the 195 ... so the amount of 195 time is pretty low. For lots of things the 3033 has nearly the same processing thruput as the 195. The engineering 3033 is about five percent cpu loaded support testcell work. We get the air bearing simulation work moved to the engineering 3033 and turn around goes up enormously.

2) monday morning I get a call that the time-sharing performance on the machine in bldg. 15 product test lab has gone to pieces and they want to know what I did over the weekend. They claim they had done absolutely nothing. On further investigation ... I find out that over the weekend they had replaced a 3830 control unit supporting 16 3330 drives with a 3880 control unit (as it turns out ... we are still six months away from first customer ship of 3880s).. After much more detailed analysis ... identify that 3880 has a serious performance problem supporting multiple drives. All the testing up until this point had been with single drive environment. This was first time that a 3880 had been configured with multiple drives. The fundamental problem was that the 3830 controller had been a very fast horizontal microcode engine. The 3880 was a fast hardware assist for data flow .... but a relatively slow vertical microcode engine (jib-prime) for control functions. The additional latency for control functions was having all sorts of disastrous and unanticipated effects on overall thruput. Some amount of this gets fixed prior to first customer ship.

What makes a mainframe a mainframe?

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From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: What makes a mainframe a mainframe?
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 01:10:06 GMT
rsteiner@visi.com (Richard Steiner) writes:
I respectfully disagree.

In my experience, at least when working in shops that actually possess one or more pieces of big iron, the term "mainframe" has always been used to refer to a particular type of high-end server system which had a set of hardware and software characteristics not shared by other systems.

It didn't matter if the thing was running OS/390, z/OS, OS2200, MCP, or something else. There were certain elements that a mainframe possessed which put it in a class by itself.

That's been the case in all three of the places I've worked, and it's also the case in a number of other shops I'm passingly familiar with.

The precise boundaries might be a moving target, but I think at least three general classes of systems still exist (not including hand-helds and the like, which probably encompass a fourth class in reality):

(1) Desktop or "workstation" machines.
(2) Mid-range or "departmental" server machines.
(3) Mainframe (or perhaps "enterprise server") machines.


one of the characteristics of the old batch mainframe systems ... although there was significant use of time-sharing & interactive computing on such systems ... some misc. time-sharing refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#timeshare

was that the batch systems basically had a paradigm that the person responsible for the program wasn't present; while the systems that originated for interactive use tended towards a paradigm that the programmer/user was present.

The implications were that when something went wrong ...

a) the interactive systems tended to punt and hopefully put up and error message that possibly some human would respond to;

b) while the batch systems evolved a set of facilities to automagically handle all sorts of conditions .... since the assumption was that the responsible humans weren't going to be present.

the appearance of the web then presented something of the dicotomy ... both the client based stuff and the server based stuff were formed on platforms that trace their heritage to interactive, desktop operation; however, while the operational requirements for the client stuff tend to somewhat match up with the interactive computing paradigm ... the server stuff tends much more towards the batch computing paradigm aka people aren't necessarily present to constantly hand-hold every little, itsy-bitsy thing that happens.

lots of past mainframe threads:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#31 Big I/O or Kicking the Mainframe out the Door
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#32 Big I/O or Kicking the Mainframe out the Door
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#00 Big I/O or Kicking the Mainframe out the Door
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#01 Big I/O or Kicking the Mainframe out the Door
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#35 mainframe CKD disks & PDS files (looong... warning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#53 How Do the Old Mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#54 How Do the Old Mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#55 How Do the Old Mainframes Compare to Today's Micros?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#00 old mainframes & text processing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#7 Why Do Mainframes Exist ???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#8 Why Do Mainframes Exist ???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#14 mainframe tcp/ip
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#27 Mainframes & Unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#28 Mainframes & Unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#29 Mainframes & Unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#31 Mainframes & Unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#32 Mainframes & Unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#33 Mainframes & Unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#34 Mainframes & Unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#35 Mainframes & Unix (and TPF)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#36 Mainframes & Unix (and TPF)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#38 Mainframes & Unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#39 Mainframes & Unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#4 Mythical beasts (was IBM... mainframe)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#63 Mainframe operating systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#68 Mainframe operating systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#71 Mainframe operating systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#75 Mainframe operating systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#76 Mainframe operating systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#77 Mainframe operating systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#78 Mainframe operating systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#79 Mainframe operating systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#88 ASP (was: mainframe operating systems)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#0 "Mainframe" Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#1 "Mainframe" Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#3 "Mainframe" Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#4 "Mainframe" Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#5 "Mainframe" Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#8 "Mainframe" Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#9 "Mainframe" Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#10 "Mainframe" Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#11 "Mainframe" Usage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#26 S-P-F (was Mainframe operating systems)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#85 Mainframe power failure (somehow morphed from Re: write rings)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#38 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#39 WHAT IS A MAINFRAME???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#44 WHAT IS A MAINFRAME???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#45 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#46 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#47 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#48 WHAT IS A MAINFRAME???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#49 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#50 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#51 WHAT IS A MAINFRAME???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#52 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#54 WHAT IS A MAINFRAME???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#56 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#59 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#63 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#64 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#65 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#66 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#67 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#68 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#69 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#70 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#71 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#72 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#73 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#74 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#75 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?></pre>
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#76 Is a VAX a mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#79 Unisys vs IBM mainframe comparisons
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#80 Unisys vs IBM mainframe comparisons
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#81 Unisys vs IBM mainframe comparisons
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#82 Unisys vs IBM mainframe comparisons
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#83 Is a VAX a mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#84 Is a VAX a mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#0 Is a VAX a mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#1 Is a VAX a mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#7 4341 was "Is a VAX a mainframe?"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#9 4341 was "Is a VAX a mainframe?"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#10 4341 was "Is a VAX a mainframe?"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#11 4341 was "Is a VAX a mainframe?"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#12 4341 was "Is a VAX a mainframe?"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#13 4341 was "Is a VAX a mainframe?"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#14 FW: RS6000 vs IBM Mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#8 Is a VAX a mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#22 Is a VAX a mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#37 FW: NEW IBM MAINFRAMES / OS / ETC.(HOT OFF THE PRESS)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#11 Amdahl Exits Mainframe Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#12 Amdahl Exits Mainframe Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#44 Options for Delivering Mainframe Reports to Outside Organizat ions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#49 Options for Delivering Mainframe Reports to Outside Organizat ions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#55 How Many Mainframes Are Out There
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#67 IBM mainframe reference online?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#48 Common uses of multiprogramming on mainframes computer? Help!! Please
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#50 Common uses of multiprogramming on mainframes computer? Help!! Please
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#52 Common uses of multiprogramming on mainframes computer? Help!! Please
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#68 Common uses of multiprogramming on mainframes computer? Help!! Please
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#4 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#5 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#6 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#7 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#8 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#9 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#11 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#12 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#13 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#14 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#17 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#18 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#19 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#20 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#21 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#23 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#24 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#25 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#30 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#32 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#33 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#37 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#41 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#50 What makes a mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#53 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#54 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#55 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#57 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#3 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#7 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#8 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#10 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#11 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#13 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#16 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#18 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#79 a.f.c history checkup... (was What specifications will the standard year 2001 PC have?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#4 IBM Mainframe at home
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#5 IBM Mainframe at home
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#6 IBM Mainframe at home
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#7 IBM Mainframe at home
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#8 Security Proportional to Risk (was: IBM Mainframe at home)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#9 Security Proportional to Risk (was: IBM Mainframe at home)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#10 IBM Mainframe at home
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#11 Security Proportional to Risk (was: IBM Mainframe at home)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#12 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#13 IBM Mainframe at home
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#14 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#16 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#17 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#18 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#19 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#20 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#21 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#23 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#24 Security Proportional to Risk (was: IBM Mainframe at home)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#25 Security Proportional to Risk (was: IBM Mainframe at home)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#28 Security Proportional to Risk (was: IBM Mainframe at home)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#29 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#30 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#33 LISTSERV(r) on mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#36 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#37 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#38 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#40 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#43 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#46 IBM Mainframe at home
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#53 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#54 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#4 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#6 LISTSERV(r) on mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#33 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#53 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#54 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#55 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#57 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#10 Least folklorish period in computing (was Re: IBM Mainframe at home)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#52 Mainframes and "mini-computers"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#60 Mainframes and "mini-computers"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#3 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#16 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#23 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#25 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#47 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#68 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#19 PowerPC Mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#20 PowerPC Mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#21 PowerPC Mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#24 PowerPC Mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#27 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#56 Server and Mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#57 Server and Mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#62 Server and Mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#14 NASA MOC (mainframe mission operations computer) being powere d
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#15 Large Banking is the only chance for Mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#16 Large Banking is the only chance for Mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#41 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#66 Mainframe Spreadsheets - 1980's History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#67 Mainframe Spreadsheets - 1980's History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#73 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#0 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#1 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#2 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#4 Mainframe Spreadsheets - 1980's History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#11 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#12 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#14 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#15 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#16 Home mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#19 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#20 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#37 Newbie: Two quesions about mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#54 Newbie: Two quesions about mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#63 Newbie: Two quesions about mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#9 Mainframe System Programmer/Administrator market demand?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#10 Mainframe System Programmer/Administrator market demand?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#11 Mainframe System Programmer/Administrator market demand?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#32 Mainframe System Programmer/Administrator market demand?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#36 mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#15 Mainframe Tape Drive Usage Metrics
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#56 The figures of merit that make mainframes worth the price
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#60 The figures of merit that make mainframes worth the price
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003i.html#52 HSM Functionality for Microsoft, using the Mainframe as the
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003j.html#34 Interrupt in an IBM mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#46 Slashdot: O'Reilly On The Importance Of The Mainframe Heritage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#47 Slashdot: O'Reilly On The Importance Of The Mainframe Heritage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#50 Slashdot: O'Reilly On The Importance Of The Mainframe Heritage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#56 Obsolete mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#29 Architect Mainframe system - books/guidenance

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

What makes a mainframe a mainframe?

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: What makes a mainframe a mainframe?
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:01:03 GMT
rsteiner@visi.com (Richard Steiner) writes:
What else can handle something as large as Amadeus? Or Sabre? Or even the less demanding systems in operationally critical environments that are currently running on such hardware?

Even the (relatively) small WorldFlight system I worked on at NWA could handle roughly 200 transactions/second at peak (where a "transaction" meant one discrete TIP program execution, each of which could perform between zero and several dozen file I/O's during the fraction of a second in which it was actually active).

Acceptable system response time to meet our SLAs was .5 seconds for a range of selected trancodes during peak loads. That is, a transaction (sometimes one program, but often several programs in a handoff chain) had to run, do their dozen or five dozen or whatever I/O's, and return a meaningful response back to the user's screen in a period of time not to exceed 1/2 second. That's a lot faster than the web. :-)

I've heard that Sabre sometimes goes over the 10,000 transaction/second mark, which is a considerably higher volume.


pars/acp/tpf genre .... is more like high performance monitor ... not real iron operating system. reports that some amount of infrastructure has to be taken down regularly to allow real operating system to perform various maint. tasks. some ten years ago, my youngest had job during college in call center for air freight forwarding ... and the main stream airline reservation systems were down regularly for such maint.

my wife was chief architect for amedeus for a short time ... until she got removed ... essentially for preferring x.25 in europe over sna (x.25 won out eventually anyway).

some amount of past pars, acp, sabre, tpf (transaction processing facility, name change in part because acp ... airline control program was being used by some financial transaction networks):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#29 Mainframes & Unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#17 Old Computers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#100 Why won't the AS/400 die? Or, It's 1999 why do I have to learn how to use
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#103 IBM 9020 computers used by FAA (was Re: EPO stories (was: HELP IT'S HOT!!!!!))
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#136a checks (was S/390 on PowerPC?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#152 Uptime (was Re: Q: S/390 on PowerPC?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#20 How many Megaflops and when?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#61 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#65 oddly portable machines
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#21 Competitors to SABRE? Big Iron
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#22 Is a VAX a mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#20 Competitors to SABRE?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#26 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#28 Competitors to SABRE?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#32 Competitors to SABRE?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#34 Competitors to SABRE?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#37 Competitors to SABRE?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#38 Competitors to SABRE?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#48 Competitors to SABRE?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#51 Competitors to SABRE?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#58 Disk drive behavior
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#37 John Mashey's greatest hits
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#69 Block oriented I/O over IP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#2 Block oriented I/O over IP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#35 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#45 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#47 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#49 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#50 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#76 Other oddball IBM System 360's ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#17 I hate Compaq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#0 TSS/360
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#3 News IBM loses supercomputer crown
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#9 IBM Doesn't Make Small MP's Anymore
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#2 Computers in Science Fiction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#3 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#12 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#43 IBM doing anything for 50th Anniv?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#63 Hercules and System/390 - do we need it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#83 HONE
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#28 ibm history note from vmshare
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#83 Summary: Robots of Doom
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#67 Tweaking old computers?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#29 why does wait state exist?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#28 TPF
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#58 AMP vs SMP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#48 InfiniBand Group Sharply, Evenly Divided
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#30 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#67 unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#30 One Processor is bad?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#32 One Processor is bad?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#37 Lisp Machines
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003j.html#2 Fix the shuttle or fly it unmanned
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#3 Ping: Anne & Lynn Wheeler
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#4 IBM Manuals from the 1940's and 1950's

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

What makes a mainframe a mainframe?

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: What makes a mainframe a mainframe?
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:11:09 GMT
Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes:
The implications were that when something went wrong ...

a) the interactive systems tended to punt and hopefully put up an error message that possibly some human would respond to;

b) while the batch systems evolved a set of facilities to automagically handle all sorts of conditions .... since the assumption was that the responsible humans weren't going to be present.


slight bleed over from a mainframe ml:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#45 hung/zombie users ... long boring, wandering story

in the above ... the referenced core 2000 benchmarks for preparing the Resource Manager product for initial release ... they took three months elapsed time to run. these days ... possibly only high-end chips have such extensive testing.

the referenced rewrite of the i/o subsystem so it never failed regardless of the i/o serverity and the number of concurrent testcells was in an environment where standard MVS with a single testcell had MTBF of 15 minutes.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Rant (Re: Programmer's unpaid overtime)

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Rant (Re: Programmer's unpaid overtime)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 05:39:44 GMT
Charles Richmond writes:
This reminds me of the name given to workstations that had *no* local disk drives...."dickless workstations". Check it out in the Jargon File at:

<http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/d/dickless_workstation.html>


some drift, but reminded when mentioned this past weekend ... from ibm jargon ... this entry can be found at:
http://www.212.net/business/jargonb.htm
[bad information] n. Lies. n. The truth, expressed euphemistically. There is a story (abbreviated here) that well illustrates this: Programmer to manager, This is manure. Manager to second-level, This is fertiliser. Second-level to third-level, This makes things grow. Third-level to Director, Must be good stuff. After an external audit, the misinformed protect themselves by saying: My people gave me bad information. CYA

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Call-gate-like mechanism

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Call-gate-like mechanism
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 02:58:58 GMT
"Glen Herrmannsfeldt" writes:
Is this a comment about the S/360 interval timer, or about an OS that uses it? MVT will use STCK on machines that have one. Also, the interval timer was defined with extra bits for possible increase in resolution later, and it might be that some processors implemented those. I presume there is no NTP implementation for MVT, though, STCK or interval timer.

the problem with the 360 timer was that it updated storage 32bits at location decimal 80. most 360s had 3.3mil resolution (tic'ed 300 times per second bit 8, or bit 24 depending on which direction you are counting from) ... but (at least) the 360/67 had high resolution timer that ticked the low order bit every 13microseconds (256*300 times per second, in part for things like time-sharing applications).

370 added high resolution timers in the hardware that were accessed via special instructions. low resolution timer in location 80 was kept for awhile ... but was depreciated.

when i was an undergraduate ... I tried to write programs that would use drive the 2702 terminal control unit so that it could automagically recognize terminal type .... aka 2702 had SAD commands that could dynamically associated specific line scanner with specific port. The problem turned out that they took some short cuts in the implementation ... and hardwired oscillator to each port .... so while you could switch the 2741 and TTY line scanners to any port ... the 134 & 110 baud rates were hardwired to each port.

somewhat as a result, we started a project to reverse engineer the 360 channel and build our own terminal controller using an Interdata/3 as initial base ... with objective of doing both automatic speed and automatic terminal recognition.

One of the early bugs we ran into was that if the timer is not able to update location 80 between two timer tics ... it redlights and hangs the machine. Having a controller hold the channel and therefor the main storage bus for longer than a timer tic interval (13.mics on 360/67) would redlight and hang the machine. random refs including blaming us for originating the ibm plug compatible controller (PCM) business:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#360pcm

370 (30 some years ago) introduced a 64bit timer infrastructure that had time of day clock register, a clock comparator register (value that when TOD matched caused an interrupt), and a cpu timer register. with low order bit of the high word defined as slightly more than one second (1024/1000).

detailed discussion of tod, clock comparator, & cpu timer on current generation machines (although I don't think the definition has changed since the original 370 some 30 years ago):
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9ZR001/4.6?SHELF=DZ9ZBK01&DT=20020416112421

and description from CPU Timer:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9ZR001/4.6.4?SHELF=DZ9ZBK01&DT=20020416112421
The CPU timer is a binary counter with a format which is the same as that of bits 0-63 of the TOD clock, except that bit 0 is considered a sign. The CPU timer nominally is decremented by subtracting a one in bit position 51 every microsecond. In models having a higher or lower resolution, a different bit position is decremented at such a frequency that the rate of decrementing the CPU timer is the same as if a one were subtracted in bit position 51 every microsecond. The resolution of the CPU timer is such that the stepping rate is comparable to the instruction-execution rate of the model.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Call-gate-like mechanism

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Call-gate-like mechanism
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:03:43 GMT
Terje Mathisen writes:
OK, now I'm confused:

Is the timer ticking at (fractional) milliseconds (1024/1000 seconds) or at microseconds?

I believe Hack was the one who sent me the 360 asm code that converts between the micro- (or milli-?) second counter and Y-M-D H:M:S.ccc format time.


as the subsequent description for 370 64-bit time, it operates as if bit position 51 tics every microsecond .... which results in bit position 31 tic'ing every 1024/1000 second.

there are two timers referenced:

1) 360, location 80 timer, 32 bits, bit 23 tics 300 times per second. on machines with high resolution timer ... bit 31 actually tics 300*256 times per second. total interval is the same on all machines whether or not high resolution time is installed.

2) 370, 64-bits, operates as if bit 51 tics every microsecond ... which works out to bit 31 (low bit of the first word) tic'ing once every 1024/1000 second ... aka the first 32 bits are approximately a one second timer ... counting approximately four billion seconds.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

Call-gate-like mechanism

Refed: **, - **, - **, - **, - **
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Call-gate-like mechanism
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:03:57 GMT
robertwessel2@yahoo.com (Robert Wessel) writes:
Current machines still implement the 64 bit STCK, but the "real" format has been extended at both ends (the high order end is a little under-implemented at the moment), and there are new instructions to access the extended format. The basic 64 bit format still has the "never same value twice" guarantee, so I assume that issuing two STCKs in a row on a very fast machine (or Sysplex) would have to cause the CPU to stall. I'm not sure that even the biggest z990 is running into that problem yet in a meaningful way.

as per original post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#50 Call-gate-like mechanism

URL was included in the above that pointed to 4.6 Timing in the current principle of operations ... i.e. (also from above):
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9ZR001/4.6?SHELF=DZ9ZBK01&DT=20020416112421

the full description for TOD clock 4.5.1.1. Format
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9ZR001/4.6.1.1?SHELF=DZ9ZBK01&DT=20020416112421&CASE=

from above:


The TOD clock is a 104-bit register. It is a binary counter with the
format shown in the following illustration.

         1 microsecond___
                         .
    ____________________ _ ____ _________________
   |                    | |    |                 |
   |____________________|_|____|_________________|
   0                    51     64              103

The TOD clock nominally is incremented by adding a one in bit position
51 every microsecond. In models having a higher or lower resolution, a
different bit position is incremented at such a frequency that the
rate of advancing the clock is the same as if a one were added in bit
position 51 every microsecond. The resolution of the TOD clock is such
that the incrementing rate is comparable to the instruction-execution
rate of the model.

....

a more detailed description is at programming notes in 4.6.1.5 TOD Programmable Register (which goes into some detail of STORE CLOCK EXTENDED):
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9ZR001/4.6.1.5?SHELF=DZ9ZBK01&DT=20020416112421&CASE=

from above:
13. At some time in the future, new models will use a carry from bit position 0 of the TOD clock to increment an additional eight-bit binary counter. STORE CLOCK EXTENDED will store the contents of this counter in byte position 0 of its storage operand. A variation of SET CLOCK will set the counter, as well as the TOD clock. Variations of SET CLOCK COMPARATOR and STORE CLOCK COMPARATOR will manipulate a comparable byte at the left of the clock comparator. These actions will allow the TOD clock to continue to measure time within the standard epoch after the current 143-year limit caused by a carry from bit position 0 has been exceeded, and they will allow continued use of the clock comparator. It may be desired to have programs that process 16-byte STORE CLOCK EXTENDED operands take these future developments into account.
...

7.5.113 STORE CLOCK
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9ZR001/7.5.113?SHELF=DZ9ZBK01&DT=20020416112421

7.5.114 STORE CLOCK EXTENDED
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/DZ9ZR001/7.5.114?SHELF=DZ9ZBK01&DT=20020416112421


   STCKE  D2(B2)           [S]

The current value of bits 0-103 of the TOD clock is stored in byte
positions 1-13 of the sixteen-byte field designated by the
second-operand address, provided the clock is in the set, stopped, or
not-set state. Zeros are stored in byte position 0. The TOD
programmable field, bits 16-31 of the TOD programmable register, is
stored in byte positions 14 and 15.

The operand just described has the following format:
    _____ _____________________________ __________
   |     |                             |Programm- |
   |Zeros|          TOD Clock          |able Field|
   |_____|_____________________________|__________|
   0      8                            112      127

When the clock is stopped, zeros are stored in the clock value in
positions to the right of the rightmost bit position that is
incremented when the clock is running. The programmable field still is
stored.

When the value of a running clock is stored, the value in bit
positions 64-103 of the clock (bit positions 72-111 of the storage
operand) is always nonzero; this ensures that values stored by STORE
CLOCK EXTENDED are unique when compared with values stored by STORE
CLOCK and extended with zeros.

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm

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